Diane de Poitiers and Catherine of Medicis
Astrological notes on TD10 and TL66
by Juan Antonio Revilla


Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 15:52:02 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Diane de Poitiers - Catherine de Medicis

Diane de Poitiers: "Throughout his reign she held court as queen of France in all but name, while the real queen, Catherine de Medicis, was forced to live in comparative obscurity" (Britannica)

There is lots on her on the Web. One of the most detailed I saw was:


Born 3 September 1499 and died 22 April 1566. Using 12h U.T.:

birth Sun = 19,17 Virgo
birth TD10 = 18,30 Virgo
death Chariklo = 18,36 Virgo (precession-corrected)
death CY118 = 18,52 Pisces

I have no idea how TD10 may have acted in her case. Or perhaps it is wrong to assume that it did, and the interpretation should be in terms of the meaning her story as the virtual Queen and mistress of the King. But I feel this is more her birth Moon-Venus-Chariklo and her death Chariklo (=mistress), while the Sun refers more to the strength of her individuality and character, and the nature of her influence (CY118).

Catalina de Médicis was born according to the Britannica on April 13, 1519, and died January 5, 1589. Two versions of her birth horoscope appear in Notable Nativities #537-538, with sources given as Gauricus (1612) for 4.40 a.m. and Junctinus 155, 205 for 5.21 a.m. I have an old French book written by "Julevno" with a chart made for April 12 at 6:20 a.m. Using 5 a.m. U.T as reference for April 13:

birth Sun = 1,48 Taurus
birth Pylenor = 0,52 Taurus
death Pylenor = 1,51 Taurus (precession-corrected)
death TL66 = 1,10 Scorpio (St. Bartholomew's Night?)

I have kept Catherine de Medicis' Sun / Pylenor conjunction waiting for confirmation after a new orbit of Pylenor was available, but the Pylenor (1994 TA) update has not come. When I saw this case years ago, I intuitively felt that it fits the symbolism very well, but I have waited in vain to be really sure. In theory, the position of Pylenor should be accurate.


Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 17:37:40 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Diane de Poitiers - add.

I have no idea how TD10 may have acted in her case. Or perhaps it is wrong >to assume that it did, and the interpretation should be in terms of the >meaning her story as the virtual Queen and mistress of the King.

here I meant "the meaning her story... has for us today", i.e., how we interpret it historically, sociologically, psychologically, etc.

It is very obvious that TD10 remained completely unconscious for her, but maybe one can see it acting directly on the intimate relationship between the King and Queen Catalina. I am pretty sure Catalina, the legitimate wife, was painfully, acutely conscious of her rival's super-strong TD10.

Diane was "smashingly" TD10 for the Queen, i.e., it did damage Catalina's Sun horribly.

There are no TD10 contacts between Diane and Catalina, but logically no clear picture can be obtained without the King's data... he might be the bridge.

King Henry II of France
b. 31 March 1519 St.Germain en Laye
NN #535 from Gauricus and Junctinus
d. 10 July 1559 Paris

The time of birth given varies from 5 to 7 a.m., so I will use as reference 5:30 a.m. U.T.

Sun = 19,10 Aries
TD10 = 19,41 Virgo r
TL66 = 20,24 Libra r

TD10's quincunx --obviously important here in view of Diane's conjunction-- is "wounding" Henry's Sun/Venus conjunction. Not that the aspect remains throughout the whole life:

birth Sun = 19,10 Aries
birth TD10 = 19,41 Virgo
death TD10 = 21,44 Virgo
birth Venus = 22,31 Aries

As to TL66, it is also clearly involved in Henry's death

death Sun = 25,52 Cancer (precession-corrected)
death TL66 = 26,03 Libra



Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 17:31:04 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Diane de Poitiers and TD10

There are no TD10 contacts between Diane and Catalina...

On second thought, consider the following (all sidereal positions):

Diane birth Sun = 1,31 Virgo (approximately)
Diane birth TD10 = 0,44 Virgo
Catalina birth TD10 = 1,35 Virgo

I first discarded this contact because TD10, being so slow, almost didn't move in the 20 years that separate the birth of Diana de Poitiers and Catherine of Medici. I thought: the Sun of Diane is conjunct the TD10 of Catherine, but it is also in conjunction with the TD10 of every body else in the world that was born during that period of time --a whole generation, so this lessens or dissolves the meaning of this contact.

But now I think: Diane being the virtual Queen of France, this actually makes a lot of sense... she incarnated the TD10 of the whole of France! Not only of the real Queen, certainly, but the rest of France didn't have to live with her in the same house or be humiliated by her --with the Queen's husband (Sun in 1,08 Aries) serving as a bridge for this of course--, so Catherine did have to experience this "incarnation of TD10" on a daily basis and in the most physical, intimate way imaginable, unlike any other else in the world except her weak-minded husband, who was in the most awkward position (quincunx).

To understand the human, psychological dimensions of this, what it may have meant to Catherine, consider the following:


[begin quote]
"Diane realized there was no love lost between her and Catherine, of course, but she was also aware that if Henri's marriage were annulled because there was no heir, he might have to marry someone even less accommodating. Being something of a pragmatist, she made an arrangement with Catherine, agreeing that on some evenings Henri would spend several hours in Diane's bed, then go to Catherine's for a while, then return to Diane's bedchamber. We are told that Diane also gave Catherine some "practical hints," which we assume were not directed toward how she could cook a better pot roast. This evidently did the trick, because the future Francois II was born in 1544, followed by the future Charles IX in 1550, and the future Henri III in 155l, plus several other children. We have no way to know if Henri himself managed to get any sleep at all during these years."
[end quote]

TD10 in action...

I am convinced that the death of the King at the age of 40, as result of an injury in his head during a jousting tournament, is the dramatization of this, i.e., a symbolical enactment of what had been going on in his head... I mean his life... for so many years. I see the first as the natural outcome of the second.



Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 11:55:39 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Catherine de Medicis - add.

There was another error when trying to calculate the death positions as precession-corrected transits, caused by the change of calendars in 1582. This time I will use the sidereal zodiac to re-calculate the 4 positions above:

birth Pylenor = 12,50 Aries
birth Sun = 13,47 Aries
death TL66 = 13,07 Libra
death Pylenor = 13,49 Aries r

(fortunately nothing changed essentially)

One thing to keep in mind is that Pylenor = poison (see my keywords), something for which she is historically famous. I had suggested that TL66 at her death in opposition to her Sun at birth could be interpreted in reference to the massacre of the Huguenots the night of Saint Bartholomew's Day, when an estimated 3000 to 5000 French protestants were murdered just in Paris, and about 25,000 throughout the country during the following 2 or 3 days.

"It was Catherine de Medici who persuaded her weakling son Charles IX to order the mass murder, which lasted three days and spread to the countryside. On Sunday morning August 24th, 1572 she personally walked through the streets of Paris to inspect the carnage."

It was the night between the 23rd and the 24th of August, 1572. I will use for reference a chart for sunrise in Paris on the 24th, and the sidereal zodiac in order to compare positions between dates:

transiting Venus = 1,32 Libra
birth TL66 = 2,16 Libra r
death Mars = 1,16 Libra

transiting CY118 = 1,36 Pisces r
transiting Moon = 2,09 Pisces
birth TD10 = 1,35 Virgo r

I think this confirms the involvement of TD10 and TL66 in the massacre.


Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 19:09:36 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Catherine de Medicis - add.2

I think this confirms the involvement of TD10 and TL66 in the massacre.

One may think that these are aspects to Catherine de Medicis' planets, and therefore refer to her case alone, so the involvement of TD10 and TL66 has no universal significance. But it seems to me that we are seeing here in action the doctrine of planetary surrogation, Catherine being the "power behind the throne" of her son Charles IX.

"... the royal decision of which the St. Bartholomew massacre was the outcome, was in nowise the result of religious disturbances and, strictly, did not even have religious incentives; the massacre was rather an entirely political act committed in the name of the immoral principles of Machiavellianism against a faction that annoyed the Court. "... the massacre itself was not premeditated; that, up to 22 August, Catherine de' Medici had only considered — and that for a long time — the possibility of getting rid of Coligny; ... the criminal attack made on Coligny was interpreted by the Protestants as a declaration of war, and in the face of impending danger, Catherine forced the irresolute Charles IX to consent to the horrible massacre."

The Moon/CY118 conjunction seems to be the main significator of the massacre. The fact that this was making an exact opposition to the birth TD10 of Catherine, and simultaneously transiting Venus was in exact conjunction with the death Mars and the birth TL66, gives weight to the generally accepted conclusion that she was directly responsible for it.

That Catherine was capable of doing something like this is a partial answer to the question I made in my previous post regarding what may have happened to Catherine's soul after so many years of a marriage --strongly marked by TD10-- that for her, in my perspective, meant dying every day, not living.

I see this case as an illustration of the principle that some key events in a person's life: death, birth, the birth and death of other people one is strongly involved with, some key events (accidents "massacres", etc. ) dialog between one another and through their interaction a person's biography and "soul" acquire structure and meaning, in contrast to the traditional interpretation that attempts to reduce everything to the tyranny of what appears or does not appear in the birth chart alone.



Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:39:01 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] TD10 and Pylenor: a lesson

Here is a description of a possible dynamics of TD10 that I see in this case. Your alternative, independent interpretations are welcome.

TD10 seems to be separating Catherine de Medicis from one part of herself, so the part of her that seems to be incarnated in Diane de Poiters --basically, it seems, beauty and love-- is buried, left behind forever, "dead". This part --a very important part!-- of Catherine's womanhood is left in the dark or "forsaken". Although she does not have TD10 in aspect with the Sun at birth or at death, she suffers the implacable projection of Diane, of Catherine's husband, and of the entire people of France who despised her. Diane de Poiters is seen by everybody as the Sun, and Catherine as her no-Sun or "the other" Sun (Diane's TD10).

Here is one aspect of psychological death that I see consistently associated with TD10, the other aspect being the "wall" that completely alienates the "dark side", i.e., that makes it totally unconscious, and therefore is projected to others in a deadly and indifferent way. I have indicated several times that I perceive TD10 as similar to Pluto but without Pluto's dynamic power to regenerate; TD10 is "a dead death". When a part of you dies and is left unconscious, you must carry its mummy, but if you don't see it because you are shut, the mummy will be incarnated by someone else. This type of dynamics is to be expected when the Sun is involved but so alienated that it can only see the light and not the darkness...

je je! I have given my own definition of terrorism here.

Pylenor is more personal and I am more hesitant to describe it because I feel intruding in the person's dignity. Right! (pause). Pylenor "rounds up" completely Catherine's life from birth to death. She is an "incarnated incarnation" of Pylenor, so studying and observing her character you can learn what Pylenor means at the most personal level. I don't want to intrude on her dignity or on the dignity of those among the readers who may have a similar aspect: it is a path full of loneliness and abandonment. But since Catherine was a public figure and a regent of the country, the political side of Pylenor comes out, i.e., the most negative side. Politicians as a rule become masters of the dark, no doubt about it!



Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:15:55 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Catherine of Medicis: add TL66

... Although she does not have TD10 in aspect with the Sun at birth or at >death, she suffers the implacable projection of Diane, of Catherine's husband, and of the entire people of France who despised her. Diane de Poiters is seen by everybody as the Sun, and Catherine as her no-Sun or "the other" Sun (Diane's TD10).

Of course this changed immediately after the death of her husband in 1559, when she was 40. But keep in mind that her mother had died when she was born and his father had followed a few weeks later. She was raised in a strict and cruel way by her uncle (who later became Pope) and her marriage was arranged when she and her husband were only 14. The marriage lasted 25 years until Henry's death.

Keep also in mind that Diane de Poitiers (herself a TD10 incarnation) incarnated Catherine's TD10.

The marriage took place October 28, 1533. I don't know the time of the wedding ceremony, but I think it is reasonable to assume that it was around noon or in the morning:

marriage Moon at sunrise = 3,42 Pisces
marriage Moon at noon = 6,01 Pisces
Catherine's death TD10 = 5,53 Virgo

St. Bartholomew's massacre sunrise Moon = 2,09 Pisces
Catherine's birth TD10 = 1,35 Virgo

Her "empowerment" or seizing of power as Queen had actually begun the days before her husband's death, when she refused to allow Diane de Poiters to see him, ignoring the agonizing Henry's repeated calls for her. After he died, she immediately became the virtual regent of France and remained as the power behind the throne until her death 30 years later. It seems clear that the death of her husband marked a dramatic change in her life.

Now let's overview the role of TL66 in all this (positions are sidereal, the data is all in previous posts).

King's death Sun = 8,06 Cancer (approx.)
King's death TL66 = 8,01 Libra (we can also call this "Catherine's seizing of power")

Catherine's death TL66 = 13,07 Libra
Catherine's birth Sun = 13,46 Aries

Catherine's birth TL66 = 2,16 Libra r
Catherine's death Mars = 1,16 Libra (approx. - 12h U.T.)
St. Bartholomew's massacre sunrise Venus = 1,32 Libra



Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 06:00:24 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] Re: Catherine of Medicis: add TL66

... My feeling is that TD10 is more related to the usual type of abuse that splits the psyche...  maybe when the effects of TL66 are very strong you go out of the body into spiritual or --more commonly-- psychic worlds. I fee that planets like TL66 could be related to psychic phenomena or abnormal powers that have been induced by sexual abuse... maybe not TL66, but other objects similar to it.



Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 15:17:21 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs]  TL66

The word "evil" aptly describes these personal aspects of TL66 and TD10...

When the trauma is too strong, the link between the physical body and the soul lessens, it becomes tenuous. This favours all types of pyschism and psychic "powers". The soul energy normally consumed in dealing with the outer world is turned inside. Disconnection from yourself and from the outer world is the inner state that corresponds to "being out of the body", and is a very effective defense mechanism to protect yourself from harm from the outer world. But later in adulthood, one is the victim of this defense mechanism, growing-up or incarnating becomes too difficult, one has already acquired the habit of withdrawing, and getting in touch emotionally with others becomes overwhelmingly painful, because one is already disposed to receive harm and feel betrayed, one has become attached to death, and does not know how to live.

I imagine TD10 in particular having to do with "death" that is experienced very early in childhood (before the 3rd year), or --maybe more-- pre-natally during pregnancy. The child is depressed. He or she doesn't want to be born, and refuses to incarnate, as a result of the mother's "diseased" soul. These effects during pregnancy or in early childhood are the cruelest, because later in adulthood they are out of the person's reach of consciousness, the truth is completely shut and denied. TD10 has an affinity with this concealment or denial of the truth.

TL66 is, like Roy MacKinnon puts it, "the moment of revelation", it is "the calling of the trumpets". I associate it --among other things, of course-- with experiences that are so inconceivably painful or dazzling that the soul cannot take them, so when they are happening, time stops, experience stops, your soul leaves the body, and you are in a state of spiritual bliss in the midst of the most gruesome things that may be happening to your body. You then spend the rest of your life trying to recover from it, slowly, drop by drop. Time has not passed for the experience (I mean, the soul has become the experience, it is possessed by it), you are living outside of life, out of time, experiencing spiritual-cosmic-collective escathological forces, prophesy, for which you develop a special affinity, but your personal life cannot pass beyond the point where it had stopped.

However, unlike TD10, TL66 is like a whirlwind, it is like Pluto squared, it unleashes spiritual forces, it "opens the gate" so there is always a push for redemption, a thrust for resurrection, an incredible spiritual gift, or like G. Tintner put it describing Bruckner's music, "to be baptized in the light". I don't perceive any of this in TD10. TD10 is Saturnian, while TL66 is Neptunian. It will always keep the doors open so you can always go back in in-memorial time to the point where it all began (sort of like Kubrick's "2001", or re-enacting in your personal life the "original sin" and the fall of Man) and let that parent-less child be loved, reach the necessary forgiveness of yourself.

Needless to say, this is so much, so beyond the common boundaries of experience, that one should not expect one's life to become "normal". Fulfilling and plentiful, even peaceful, yes, normal never.


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