| Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 10:50:07 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Chechnya
Two years ago (19 Nov 1999), Zane Stein tried to find the possible dates for a horoscope of Chechnya. I would like to quote one small part of what he found from his research:
At that time, I wrote some comments to this, part of which are (20 Nov 1999):
Going back to the Encyclopedia, I find that the inhabitants of Chechnya before the secession were 35% Russian and 60% Chechen/Ingush, both of which are Muslims; and according to what Zane found the Chechen Republic was <<arbitrarily carved out of Chechno-Ingush Republic>>
I know next to nothing about the current situation in Chechnya, let alone of its history, so I welcome the reasoned input and corrections of our Russian friends in the forum. I have heard that some or many Afghan fighters had gone to Chechnya to join the fight of their fellow Muslims.
When the independence and sovereignty of Chechnya was declared (Nov 25 1990), Jupiter was exactly over the Sun of Islam:
Sun Islam = 19,53 Cancer (sidereal)
If we use the date when the declaration of Independence was ratified by the local Soviet Parliament 2 days later, a Mars/Sun opposition becomes partile:
Sun = 4,59 Sag (tropical)
A very strong and defiant Mars... (see below on Hylonome). According to the Britannica's entry on Dzhokhar Dudayev (1995 Book of the Year):
<<If you asked a Moscovite in 1994 to describe the Chechens, you might hear characterizations as diverse as "proud Caucasian warriors", "gangsters from the South", "staunch defenders of Islam", or "historically oppressed people".>>
I feel this is reflected in the aspects and comparisons. If we go back again to the sidereal zodiac in order to account for precession and make the comparison:
sidereal Nessus of invasion of Chechnya, 11 Dec 1994 = 28,36 Libra
Now let's take a look to the chart of "Imperial Russia" (i.e., the not-so-defunct Soviet Union). We find (I take 26 Oct --O.S.-- 1917 at 0h GMT as reference, no Moon nor angles):
sidereal Hylonome Soviet Union = 10,20 Aquarius
Could we say: Chechnya's violent defiance compulsively "appears in" or "focuses" the Hylonome of Soviet Russia?. Remember Stalin exiling them all to Central Asia, where Dudayev was born. The above aspect is an eloquent description of the oppression and the age-old Chechen defiance. It also illustrates the fluid nature of history of which I wrote in "testing... #5". There is more:
sidereal Mars of Soviet Union = 9,24 Leo (opposition Hylonome
sidereal Saturn Soviet Union = 20,38 Cancer
Did the Soviet Union (tried to) conquer (=Mars/Venus) Islamic nations? Did it try to control and repress (Saturn) them? If it were not for the heavy and hard hand of Saturn, one would say that the Soviet Union and Islam were having a "love affair"... Mars conquers and demands, Venus submits or complies, but often ends up repudiating and leaving. This reminds me of:
sidereal Mars of Israel = 4,17 Leo
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 18:13:53 -0600
I have been reading some very good Internet summaries about the conflict in Chechnya. They are:
These summaries are well-documented and seem to cover a lot of the facts and complicated details in a comprehensive way. The number of civilian casualties is staggering.
The first part of the War, lasted from Dec. 10/11 1994, when the Russian Army launched its full-blown attack that ended levelling the capital and killing tens of thousands of targeted civilians, to a cease fire signed in August 1996 that left the Republic under the control of the separatists. Dudayev had been killed in April 1996.
The Second part of the War ignited in 1999, when hundreds of Islamic fighters --reportedly financed by Osama Bin Laden-- crossed to the neighboring Dagestan and used Chechen villages as shelter.
The first group crossed from Chechnya on 7 August 1999:
<<On 07 August 1999 group of between 200 and 500 armed men crossed the border into Dagestan early in the day and took up positions around three mountain villages. The Muslim insurgents quickly captured several villages in the remote mountains of the southern Dagestan region. On 10 August a council of Islamic leaders in the region met and declared Dagestan's independence. The declaration called for Muslims from Dagestan and Chechnya to fight until all infidels were ousted from Muslim territory.>> [ref. "2" above]
I use 3 a.m. GMT 7 August 1999 as reference:
sidereal Sun = 19,28 Cancer
sidereal Sun of Islam = 19,53 Cancer
<<On 05 September 1999 hundreds of gunmen (some estimates up to two- thousand) crossed into Dagestan from Chechnya and began fighting for control over four villages in the Novolaksky district. Fighting continued in the Karamakhi area of Dagestan. Russian troops stepped up air attacks against Islamic fundamentalists in existing positions trying to retain control over several villages.>>
using 12h GMT 5 Sept 1999 as reference:
sidereal Uranus = 19,00 Capricorn
Then came the terrorist attacks on Russian civilians:
31 August 1999, military housing complex in Dagestan; 65 dead
<<Russian authorities linked the blasts to Islamic militants in Chechnya and Dagestan, but produced little evidence to prove their assertions. Russian security authorities launched a massive manhunt, dubbed "Operation Whirlwind," for the people responsible for the bombings. Moscow papers were rife with comment on the bombings, portrayed universally as part of the "war" between "Russia and fundamentalist Islam." Chechen officials, including President Aslan Maskhadov and renegade warlord Shamil Basayev, denied any involvement in the bombings in Russia.>> [ref. "2" above]
<<On 23 September 1999 Russian forces bombed the airport at Chechnya's capital, Grozny, in the first Russian attack on the Chechen capital since the region's civil war ended in 1996.>> <<Defense Minister Igor Sergeyev vowed that the bombing of Chechnya would continue until, as he put it, "the last bandit is destroyed.">> [id.]
Haven't you heard this before?
<<On 21 October 1999 a Russian surface-to-surface missile strike on Grozny killed more than 140 people and left even more wounded. The rockets slammed into the center of the Chechen capital killing civilians, including many women and children. The explosions occurred in several areas in Grozny, including a downtown market and near a Chechen presidential building. A Russian spokesman said the busy market place was targeted because it was used by rebels as an arms bazaar.>>
sidereal Saturn = 20,14 Aries
As we can observe, the conflict happens during the transiting Saturn/Uranus square, which makes exact square and opposition to the Sun of Islam.
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 16:32:37 -0600
In my last message it was evident that the logic and language the Russians used to justify their attack on Chechenya is identical in many respects to the one used by President Bush to attack Afghanistan. Remember that:
<< In August and September of 1999, Islamic extremists based in Chechnya, independent of the government of Chechnya, twice staged armed incursions into the neighboring Russian Federation Republic of Dagestan. Hundreds of militants invaded, with the intent of creating an independent Islamic state in Dagestan. There were accusations that terrorist Osama Bin Laden had been supplying arms to the rebels and might move to Dagestan himself.>> [ref. "2"]
Later one can read how fighters trained in Afganistan, not only arms, were part of the Chechen resistance. This clarified to me why Russians were being so cooperative with the US right now. This cooperation, though, had been established long before, since the sophisticated electronic technology used to kill chechen President Dudayev in 1996 had been supplied by the US:
"US supplied the technology to kill Dudayev"
Before examining how accurately Bin Laden's "Fatwa" of 23 Feb 1998 fits in all this, we must clarify the following:
Recall, from what Zane had found:
DATE 1: <<On Nov 27, 1990, the declaration of independence and sovereignty was unanimously ratified by the Soviet Parliament of the Chechen-Ingush Republic.>>
==> this is the date I have used so far
DATE 2: <<On Oct 27, 1991, in fulfillment of constitutional requirements, a national Chechen referendum was held. The Chechen nation approved the declaration of independence and elected Gen. Dzhokar Dudayev as the first elected president of the independent Chechen Republic...>>
==> this seems to be the day celebrated by Chechens
It is probably better to use this date. In a case like this, I would never try to make a competition to see what date wins in order to eliminate the other. I explained my philosophy in my original notes on "Testing the chart of Islam". Both are significant in their own right, and I think it is best to see what each of them tells us. DATE 1 happened before the official dissolution of the USSR in late 1991, and I have commented on the aspects it makes with the chart of the USSR. DATE 2 is a confirmation of the first, and it happened after the Russian Federation was founded following the disappearance of the USSR. It would be logical to see what critical/focal aspects it makes with the chart of the Russian federation.
Now we may go back to the "Fatwa":
Fatwa sidereal Pylenor = 9,33 Aries
Dudayev was killed by an electronically guided rocket that followed the signal of his cell phone. The attack happened April 21 or 22, 1996, and he either died at the spot or soon afterwards. According to reference "3" above he was born April 15, 1944. One finds:
sidereal Uranus at death of Dudayev = 9,47 Capricorn
This looks like a good signature (Sun/Uranus/Node) of a man who was the strongest and fiercest symbol of Chechen independence in the 20th Century. In the chart of the Soviet Union, this ties very strongly with Chariklo:
sidereal Chariklo USSR = 9,46 Aries
... opposition the Sun of Chechnya (DATE 2), etc. What could this USSR Chariklo mean? I am not sure, and am open to suggestions.
Before I go on, it is necessary to explain that to me, the map of the Soviet Union feels not "dead", as the aspects that I have mentioned show. In this case in particular, maybe it represents the centralized absolute imperial power that Russia wants to exert over Chechnya, or to put it simpler, how Russia is trying to maintain the same relationship the Soviet Union had with Chechnya, and Czarist Russia before that. It is as if Chechnya is still fighting the Soviet Union, or at least, the Chariklo and the Hylonome aspect of the (old) Soviet Union. Recall that Stalin had deported all Chechens to Central Asia under the excuse that they had collaborated with the Nazis. Dudayev had been born in exile in Kazakhstan. Chechens never really submitted to Russia even after they had lost the war with the Czar, and now, the Russians "regress" in the case of Chechnya and continue the same harsh policy that the Soviet Union had, not allowing their independence even at the cost of hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties. The reports I have read about the war in Chechnya are to me the most savage I have seen.
To have a clue about Chariklo, let's recapitulate the other appearances of Chariklo I have found these days...
1- Moon of Israel conjunct Chariklo of Islam (orb=0,23'). My comment or feeling was: <<I believe this is related to "the marriage" between Arabs and Jews, to their sharing (???) the same territory... A very sad marriage indeed, maker of many widows.>>
2- Chariklo of Bin Laden's Fatwa conjunct the Sun/Varuna conjunction of Islam (Varuna=0,44'/Sun= 1,39') conjunct Pluto of Israel (orb=0,24'), conjunct US Boyd Mercury (orb=0,21') ... etc. My comment at the time was: <<My feeling goes in the direction of Chariklo representing the "moral bond" or commitment, the dedication requested, being rather dark and linked to death, the death of Islamic children and the darkness of Islamic sacred places, and the corresponding death of Americans and their allies in the name of divine justice. The commitment or moral bond to the intention to kill American civilians is a sort of dark marriage with God, the motivation of which is the mourning of their own families. This is (or may be) Chariklo.>>
At that time, I mentioned how the Sun of the mythical revolutionary Mexican leader Emiliano Zapata was in an exact conjunction with the 1st-house Chariklo of Mexico (16 Leo). What I had felt then gave me some clues about how to interpret Chariklo in these cases above, although I recognize that "clues" is the only thing I have. In a future e-mail I would like to offer a translation of the part dealing with centaurs of my study of Zapata. The complete study in Spanish is in: http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/blackmoon/zapata.html
In all these cases, the aspect is a conjunction ("marriage"?), while in the case of Chechnya/USSR, it is an opposition. I am aware that it is odd to use the USSR in this case. It may not have any objective meaning at all, but nevertheless I think that the opportunity of bringing out some of the characteristics of Chariklo in cases of bloody conflicts like these are real.
NOTE: for the post that followed explaining the Zapata/Mexico/Chariklo
relationship, please go to the end of my "Notes on Chariklo" in http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/posts/notes/chariklo.html
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:29:28 -0000
30.11.1922 Chechen autonomy was created
(in Russian Federation), and 7.07.1924 Ingush autonomy was created.
-- thanks, Denis.
These dates can be added to the others of the 1990's found by Zane. If we add to them the approach evident in expressions such as <<It's not alternative. We have one and only date>> or <<The date 26 Oct 1917 is not related to Imperial Russia or to the Soviet Union>> and <<that's all there is to it>>, we have an excellent illustration of the points I was making in my conversation with John Delaney. Please refer to that discussion for clarification about why I reject this approach. In the following, I will continue using the traditional chart of the October Revolution as representing the USSR (which I equate with "Imperial Russia"), since that is to me by far the most powerful symbol of it. I had also suggested that this chart is "not so dead".
-- Here is the relevant part of that discussion:
One thing I would NOT do, is pretending to find ONE date, ONE chart, and rest peacefully with it, referring everything (transits, etc.) to it, eliminating the others. I would see what each of the dates tells me and how these dates are inter-related. This is "organic" to me.
The problem is the conception one has about a "birth chart". Most of these mundane birth charts are based on exact times which are the result of someone's "rectification". Exact recorded times not only do not exist in many of these cases, but trying to find them is too unrealistic, because often the significant moment one would choose is totally deluded in the complex flow of events, and such a moment simply does not exist. The moment chosen in those cases is the result of the subjective prejudiced perception of each astrologer.
Look for example at the different moments chosen for the formation of the Russian Federation...
So I think one needs a different approach. One has as a starting point a series of significant dates. They are all historically significant and symbolic. Now put them to test to see which one works better. There are always a priori "reasons" why one starting date should be better than the other. From my perspective, to say a priori, without any previous explicitly astrological investigation, that "this is the one to use", is prejudice, not astrology. It may happen that, after astrological investigation, one remains undecided between 2 or 3 possible dates. In that case, each of the dates can offer its own symbolic perspective.
For example, the Boyd US chart offers a "War" perspective, the 4th of July a "mythical perspective", etc. Even the chart made for the death of President Lincoln offers a useful perspective.
I know that what I am saying goes against normal practice and beliefs. I will say what I think, knowing that very few or no one agrees with me or will openly reject it.
To have one single, unique "chart", with exact angles and all, when there is no historical record of any reasonably approximate time, is to me an unacceptable absurdity, a lot of nonsense. I will always summarily disregard those charts, Ascendants, Midheavens, house positions, etc. I cannot use them indiscriminately without violating the way my mind is structured. I can use them only as reference points to analyze the inter-relationship between radical and transiting planets, and maybe the Moon. Angles are useless in contexts like this.
Instead, you establish the organic nature of an entity examining its history, its flow in time. There are no houses or signs in this approach, only "juncture" or "critical" times (4th harmonic planetary aspects) that become revelations or outpourings of meaning. Unfortunately, the "seed metaphor" which dominates astrological thinking and practice, and which is the result of a mechanistic, cause-and-effect materialistic paradigm, has established a mental habit --or dogma-- that strives to refer everything to the original seed --or chart. I find this rigid and archaic. The entity under study is only approximated through astrology, and certainly not through one chart (or date) only, but through several significant "epiphanical" dates interacting with each other.
This was already explained in "Testing the chart of Islam-- 5".
What one is able to present or demonstrate of this approach in an e-mail, or a series of e-mails, against a mental habit thousands of years old, is by necessity extremely superficial.
Since Astrology is not involved with a cause and effect mechanism, national charts also trace events in the past. We have seen how the Sun/Mars opposition of DATE1 of Chechnya made the Hylonome of the Soviet Union become critical and compulsive (square, T-cross). Chechnya's ancestral fight for independence from Russia is therefore compulsively focused in the Soviet Hylonome. The forced exile to Central Asia of the whole Ingush and Chechen population, after the Ingush/Chechen Republic was abolished in retaliation for their alleged cooperation with the Nazis (the Germans never came to Ingush/Chechen territory) , may help explain the symbol of Hylonome/Mars/Sun here, and the expression "the cry of the poor", or "the suffering of a people" seems to fit well.
If the Chechens had invaded Russia and tried to conquer it, I would feel free to associate Hylonome with "the fallen", a very strong Hylonome symbol that find expression in memorials and monuments for those who died in battle defending their country. Perhaps the clue to the paradoxical way in which Hylonome incarnates the Chechen resistance inside the Soviet Union is the way this is happening compulsively through an exact Sun/Mars opposition. This aspect also gives weight to DATE1 (27 Nov 1990) as a radical for Chechnya.
I had left pending speculation about the possible meaning of the Cariklo/Sun opposition between the Soviet Union and Chechnya using DATE2 (27 Oct 1991). The configuration was
sidereal Chariklo USSR = 9,46 Aries
From what I gather DATE2 was the one celebrated by Dudayev as Chechnya's independence. He had
sidereal Uranus at death = 9,47 Capricorn
Using the suggestions presented in my post on the Mexico/Zapata relationship, which we saw suggests that Zapata can be seen as the "wife in death" or "dark soulmate" of Mexico, I would suggest the following the opposition may be seen represented in the geography, where Chechnya (the wife) does not see herself as part of the territory of Russia as in a conjunction, but as a neighbor struggling for its emancipation. Remember that "emancipation and freedom" is among my keywords for Chariklo, but that this has a "silent", "dark" or "sad" overtone (positively, a "sober celebration", in opposition to the "euphoria" represented by Pholus), linked to death and widowhood. Imperial Russia "marries" Chechnya, but leaves her in a state of mourning.
Remember how something similar, from a totally different perspective, is evident in the movie "Braveheart" when Wallace marries Murron in clandestinity, only to see her executed by cutting her throat soon afterwards, reflected in the Sun/Chariklo conjunction in Mel Gibson's chart.
The "death of children" or the "mourning of the families" was suggested as possible Chariklo meanings by the Fatwa of Bin Laden. A corroboration of this in another context is found in the life and chart of the composer Gustav Mahler. Please refer to
and check the dates of the Sun/Chariklo conjunctions.
I think that neither Chariklo nor any other centaur has by necessity these negative or "dark" overtones. The positive meaning of Chariklo can be seen as a sort of "sad radiance", a "somber beauty", or even better a "luminous night". Chariklo is the "Transfigured Night" (Verklarte Nacht), the famous poem by Richard Dehmel (1863-1920), immortalized by Schoenberg's symphonic poem. Please refer to
NOTE: Apparently, I had made a mistake and this collection of posts was not available at my site. This is now fixed.
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:51:43 -0600
I would like to explore some significant centaur aspects involving the "chart" (no Moon, no angles) of the Russian Federation, using the date given by Denis, June 12th, 1990, which is said to be the "Day of Independence":
sidereal Sun = 26,39 Taurus (at 12h GMT)
sidereal Asbolus Dudayev's birth = 26,16 Taurus
This Asbolus connection of Chechnya with the present-day ex-superpower (Sun/Pylenor) is more directly related with the 1994-1996 and 1999-2000 wars. The relationship is so critical than one could say that Asbolus "rules" or "signifies" the present conflict, without ascribing any speculative meaning to this. Yeltsin's and Putin's Russia therefore "incarnates" Dudayev's Asbolus. They were Asbolus for him, and the independence of Chechnya created an "Asbolus conflict" where Russia's determination (Sun) "crosses" the Chechnyan Asbolus. Chechnya's independence (DATE1) is a "bad Asbolus transit" that challenges Russia's integrity as a nation (square Sun), personified in the person of Dudayev.
All this can be said without interpreting anything or speculating about the meaning of Asbolus. But it is not too hard to have at least a minimal idea of what Chechnya and Dudayev, i.e., Asbolus, have meant for Russia in the 1990's. For example, the first phase of the war (1994-96) was sort of humiliating (Pylenor) for Russia militarily, because the Russian army retired after heavy losses without having been able to control Chechnya, which retained its independence. During the second phase (1999-2000), the old mistakes were corrected and the civilian deaths and destruction in Chechnya reached unprecedented levels. To give you an idea, here is a quote from 'Lawless' Russian Actions Reflect Mounting Frustration, Self-criticism and even an apology follow last week's sweep of two Chechen towns.", By Scott Peterson, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor. Moscow:
-- In other words, from a war in which Chechnyan civilians were often the target and their cities were literally levelled, Putin transformed it into a counter-terrorist operation. This may give us a clue about the participation of Asbolus:
Maybe this is one aspect of the Sun/Pylenor of present day Russia. Remember in a recent post (10 Nov 2001 07:55:48 -0600) I wrote:
<<I feel Pylenor is colder, like a butcher or torturer, while Asbolus is "burning" and "sins", it is "consumed">>
We see in the above quotes both centaurs at work...
Knowing that Asbolus, personified in Dudayev, represents Chechnya for present-day Russia, maybe it could be useful to do the same thing I did with Zapata, i.e., use some of my preliminary keywords and see if something comes out. I will leave the commentaries to your imagination, and use only the keywords that I think allow us to see Asbolus in action in this context:
1- "dreams, mist, fog". In this case, it is smoke and darkness,
a real nightmare.
This is the closest I have found so far to "terrorism" among the centaurs...
Curiously, as in the case of Zapata again, there is a Sun/Asbolus conjunction that incarnates the mythical and tragic figure of the charismatic revolutionary in arms (Dudayev) that was later assassinated.
NOTE: for an update of this thread
dealing with the hostage crisis in a Moscow theater in October 2002, please
go to http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/posts/notes/td10.html