Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:13:33 - 0600
   From: jar@xxxxxxx.xx.xx (Juan Revilla)
Subject: Abraham Lincoln

Abraham Lincoln died April 15, 1865, at 7:22 a.m., in Washington. The exact time appears in 'National Geographic Magazine' Vol. 137 No.3 (March 1979), page 400, given by the Park Service historian John Lissimore. A confirmation of the hour, though without the minutes precision, is found in page 315 of David Saville Mussey 'A History of Our Country' (Ginn & Co., 1953), where it says that <<he lingered without regaining consciousness until a few minutes past 7 o'clock.>>

We first find a main axis of the chart:

Sun    = 25,32 Aries
Saturn = 27,08 Libra Rx.

This may be a good signature of his character: grave, deep, depressive, of great integrity and humbleness, and also of great depth. It has a significant twist:

Uranus = 26,12 Geminis

which enriches it with a consistent and practical idea of freedom and equality of opportunities. And the following wider trine may give us a better perspective still of his character:

Jupiter = 29,01 Sagittarius

...making his ideals wider and pervading his character with them. The terrible ordeal of the Civil War and the assassination maybe are to be found in the "key" offered by the natal position of Mars: Mars at birth = 26,17 Libra (precession- corrected 47')

This natal Mars practically brings together the Sun and Saturn making the opposition exact. When he died, Mars was in exact square with Neptune, while Neptune --the planet that better charts the Civil War-- was making a trine to its natal position and was exactly conjunct his natal Venus. This is beautiful, and enlightening:

natal Neptune = 7,28 Sagittarius (prec.corr.)
natal Venus   = 8,15 Aries (prec.corr.)
death Neptune = 8,41 Aries
death Mars    = 8,07 Cancer

Venus/Neptune represents the cherished dream of a man who in his most intimate self is identified with the union and cohesion of a nation, through brotherhood, tolerance, and the supression of injustice towards the poor and the black, of which he was the poineeer and the visionary. The involvement of Mars is self-evident: violence, treason, the sacrificial victim...

We must also note the Mercury/Pluto conjunction duplicated at birth and at death:

Mercury at birth = 11,06 Pisces (around 7 a.m., prec.corr.)
Pluto at birth   = 14,24 Pisces

Mercury at death = 14,42 Taurus
Pluto at death   = 12,20 Taurus

Now let's see the perspective offered by the centaurs at death:

QM107 = 26,31 Cancer
(forming an exact T-square with Sun/Saturn, apparently becoming a major key of the death-chart)

TF35  = 15,48 Taurus
(applying conjunction with Mercury, a confirmation of the Mercury/Pluto symbolism. 1181 Lilith adds to the symjbolism here in 13,56 Taurus)

UG5   = 29,42 Aries
(applying conjunction with the Sun. This centaur apparently is critical, because its position at birth is 14,04 Sagittarius, while the Moon at death is 13,57 Sagittarius. Natal Pluto is in 14,24 Pisces in square to this)

TL66  = 27,21 Sagittarius
(this position "unites" Jupiter wider trine to the Sun and makes it tighter. In opposition to Uranus in 26,12 Gemini, it gives a more cosmic and devastating momentum to the Sun/Saturn/Uranus combination.

Nessus = 28,01 Leo.
(This produces a Grand-Trine between Sun(and UG5) with Jupiter(and TL66) and Nessus. Curious the Grand-Trine: it seems to be transcendental here and not that "good")



Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 08:22:21 -0600
Subject: Re: Pluto/Asbolus

ref: Pluto/Asbolus conjunction in 11,57 Sag, Nov 13 2000.

--This US election is making news all over the world. From what I hear, something similar has not happened in a long time before... so we probably may assume that this is at least one of the main meanings world-wide of this conjunction, especially since Pluto represents the "power" the US has politically and economically in the world. The situation has already started affecting financial markets... and it doesn't look like it is going to be solved tomorrow. And I guess that even if it is solved, it will leave a mark in US political history, as one of the main challenges to the old indirect electoral system. It has also put in evidence the weaknesses and errors that have logically been present in elections in the past but had gone unnoticed.

--This half-and-half "standstill" is really something to ponder, maybe centaurean, maybe something is "sick" in the system. It looks as if the system just didn't work this time...

--There is "a mist" (Asbolus). Nobody really knows who won. I don't feel it was really a conspiracy, but this may have triggered some conspirators to try to stop the other party from ending up with more votes.

--This would be a good fit for the Chiron/Pluto/Sagittarius, which Pluto/Asbolus has deepened. The standstill could be seen as the wounds of an electoral system being exposed and in need of a cure. I wonder if there has ever been a poll regarding how many US citizens would prefer a direct vote or would consider it more "just"?

I'm not sure what it means, but there are several astrological "coincidences" worth mentioning with the charts of 2 events that mark very strongly the political history and the balance of power in the US, like great myths or symbols in the rock of time: the assassinations of Lincoln and of Kenedy, representing 2 big wounds in the heart of America as a nation: the Civil War, and, according to some interpretations (such as Oliver Stone's in his film "J.F.K".), the War of Vietnam (the only difference is that one meant the end of the war, the other, the beginning of it.

(NOTE: I definitely would appreciate clues as to other events in US history that can be interpreted in a similar way)

I think that the stature of a man is better served by the death chart, not the birth chart, or by the combination of both. Lincoln died April 15, 1865, at 7:22 a.m. in Washington, after having been shot the night before (the exact time appears in p.400 of National Geographic Magazine Vol.137 No.3, March' 70, and was given by Park Service historian John Lissimore). He is a symbol and a myth, an image of American democracy, a democracy which is very much in the minds of everybody today.

When he died, the Moon was in 13,54 Sagittarius. ("The Great Pyramid and the Sphynx"). If we apply correction to all positions relative to this date, we find that:

- it is conjunct the centaurs UG5 at birth = 14,11 Sagittarius

- it is conjunct the plutino EB173 at the US Independence chart = 13,47 Sagittarius (there is an uncertainty in this position, but it is probably not much, I'd say about 1 degree or less. The theoretical calculated uncertainty at this time is about half a degree).

- and of course, we find Chiron the day of the elections 2000 in 14,29 Sagittarius (remember everything is precession corrected)

Now: Kenedy was murdered at 12:30 p.m. of November 22, 1963, in Dallas. If you the Oliver Stone film, you are left wondering about the meaning of his assassination, what an enormous (an officially concealed) crack and wound his death was to American democracy. You find:

- the ascendant of the assassination is 14,32 Pisces, opposing Vesta in 14,22 Virgo.

- the birth position of Pluto in Lincoln's chart (February 12, 1809, the same day as Charles Darwin) is 14,24 Pisces.

--These "coincidences", it seems, are clear signs of trauma.

Incidentally, the participation of 2000EB173 is interesting, because the day Lincoln and Darwin were born, this planet was in exact conjunction with the Sun. If we take 12h GMT as reference we find:

Sun = 24,20 Aquarius
EB173 = 25,06 Aquarius
--this is also the position of Damocles the day of Independence:
Damocles in US chart = 25,59 Aquarius
(remember everything is precessed to Lincoln's death)

--EB173 was conjunct the lunar node when Lincoln was murdered:

Lunar Node = 0,02 Scorpio
EB173 = 29,54 Aries

--An he is, of course, right now pondering about the meaning of American 

Sun the day of elections (24h GMT) = 14,00 Scorpio
Mercury at Lincoln's death = 14,42 Taurus

--and what do you think the following means?

Neptune at Kenedy's death = 14,33 Scorpio!

--In terms of Licoln's death chart, the Asbolus and Pluto the day of elections 2000 were at:

Asbolus = 9,04 Sagittarius
Pluto = 9,51 Sagittarius

--now consider the position of Uranus in the US Independence chart:

US Uranus = 10,08 Gemini
(remember everything is precession-corrected to Lincoln's death)

--and the position of the exact conjunction due today at Greenwich midnight is 10,04 Sagittarius!



Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:35:57 -0600
Subject: Re: [ACT] Pluto, Lincoln... and Asbolus

In a previous post in this forum 1 month ago (November 13), I mentioned the death chart of Abraham Lincoln and its astrological significance (April 15, 1865, at 7:22 a.m. Washington). In my opinion, the moment of death of Lincoln is a good representative of American democracy, historically speaking, unlike the moment of declaration of Independence... you all know better than I what Lincoln represents...

At that moment, the Moon was in 13,57 Sagittarius (13,24 topocentric), so Pluto is about to make conjunction with it, tropically speaking. As I see it, from the very sad events happening in Florida right now (and especially, to me, yesterday), the panorama is grim.

If one considers precession, then one finds that Chiron was in 14,29 Sagittarius the day of the elections (Nov. 7 2000 at 18h CST). Maybe a sign of a "wound" to American democracy that nobody could predict? A disease and a "fissure" in American society that has come to the surface and is in need of a cure?

At the heart of the Florida events, is the question of whether or not counting the "undervote" ballots. "Counting ballots" is a very Mercurial task that has acquired an unprecedented transcendence. Maybe that's why the Sun the day of the elections (precession corrected to the time of Lincoln's death) was in 14,00 Scorpio (6 p.m. CST), making the position of Mercury in the death chart of Lincoln --the symbol of the American people-- (14,42 Taurus) "shine".

As you all know, last Friday after 4 p.m. (does any know the exact time?) the Florida Supreme Court gave the order to count all the undervote ballots in all Florida counties. This was meant to bring order and equality to the process, and was a very transcendental decision, because it would most probably overturn the result of the election for the US presidency. It was transcendental also from the point of view the right of the voters --the very basic principle of democracy: that people "count" --Mercury again, but with a Plutonian quality.

Let's forget for the moment that this decision and the order it imposed state-wide was violated and cracked 2 days later by the order from the US Supreme Court. What I am interested in is that, when the order of the Florida Supreme Court was issued (I'm using 4 p.m. EST for reference, maybe it was somewhat later), if we apply precession to the time of Lincoln's death, we find the Moon in 12,12 Taurus, closely applying to Mercury in 14,42 Taurus of the Lincoln death chart, and, more importantly, in exact conjunction with Pluto of that chart in 12,20 Taurus.

In other words, the Moon was over the Mercury/Pluto conjunction of Lincoln's death:

Mercury = 14,42 Taurus
Pluto = 12,20 Taurus

Mercury/Pluto represents here a transcendental idea, a principle, probably related to the abolition of slavery, but more than that, to the principles that were behind it. And the interesting thing is that this same conjunction was present when he was born, February 12 1809, greatly strengthening its significance as a "signature" of his life:

at Lincoln's birth (precession-corrected to the time of his death):
Mercury = 11,14 Pisces
Pluto = 14,24 Pisces

Please note that when he died, the Moon in 13,57 Sagittarius was squaring this conjunction, as Pluto and Chiron are doing now. Note also that transiting Mercury and Pluto are about to be in conjunction in the sky again (exact December 12 at 6h12 GMT), in 13,02 Sagittarius.  (11,09 allowing for precession to Lincoln's death --in exact square to his Mercury at birth).

So we may conclude that at least some aspects of what Lincoln represents to the American nation --and to the world-- are at stake here: the Mercury/Pluto conjunction, and the Moon. Considering the ballot-counting issue and the battles at the courts, we can identify the most superficial aspects of this. A more profound interpretation, however, must be done in terms of the principles that this conjunction represented for Lincoln and for the American people, not to mention the very obvious relationship of the Moon with the people themselves, and with the (to me and to many others) grim events happening in Florida right now, as far as American democracy or Lincoln-the-symbol are concerned...

Someone said, quite correctly, that this is really a plutocracy.

There is a clear connection with Asbolus in all this:

Asbolus of Lincoln (death) = 10,42 Gemini
Asbolus/Pluto conjunction Dec 14 2000 0h07m GMT = 10,04 Sagittarius
Uranus U.S. independence = 10,08 Gemini
(both precession-corrected to the time of Lincoln's death)

I don't know how to interpret the role of Asbolus here. Generally speaking, we can say it fits the chaotic mess that this elections have become. The involvement of Pluto/Uranus suggests something like a very anti-democratic power-snatching (either Bush or Gore, depending on your sympathy), but it is the involvement of Asbolus that intrigues me. If I make use of my keywords in order to have some light in this:

"dreams, mist, fog" - this suggests that there is something "fishy" in the Florida counting of the votes.

"hiding places, mystery, conspiracy" - some people believe there was a conspiracy. Was there or is there one?. Certainly, there is one very obvious. which is to avoid counting the undervote ballots at all costs (or to count them at all costs?)...

"tabu, sin, confession" - this, seen broadly, suggests to me the loss of respect in the decisions of the Supreme Court. Both Supreme Courts, the Florida and the Federal, have acquired an image of partisanship. The "tabu", the "myth" represented by Higher Justices and their imposing sense of finality is breaking down in the image of the public.

"anguish, bewilderment, bleeding hearts" - this speaks for itself to those personally involved in the process.

The above notes are meant only as an exercise. I really don't know what Asbolus represents here, but would like to hear suggestions!



Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 18:16:40 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] Abraham Lincoln

>And what about an authoritative birth time for Lincoln?  The best I have come up with has been "sunrise".

<<The midwife or granny who brought the baby into the world, Aunt Peggy Walters, states that it happened just after sun up...>> [p.173 M.E. Jones "Scope of Astrological Prediction", 1973]

This is the only biographical reference available.  All other times are speculations about what the phrase "just after sun up" could have meant and rectifications based on those speculations.

Maurice Wemyss in "Famous Nativities"(publ.1938) interprets this as <<between 7 and 11 a.m.>>, and gives as reference the "National Astrological Journal" of February 1934.

The source of this statement is a book by W.E. Barton "Women Lincoln Loved", publ.1927.



Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 19:22:41 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] Darwin AND Lincoln

>Is anyone aware of a treatment of similarities and differences between >Darwin and Lincoln, astrological or otherwise?

I made an attempt in several posts I wrote here January 20, 2000, dealing with an exact Sun/EB173 conjunction that later turned out to be 3 degrees off.

Here are the relevant posts:

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:26:51 -0600
Subject: Pluto, plutinos, and 2000 EB173

Plutinos are all dynamically similar, and it is difficult to ascertain from the orbit alone what their characteristics might be. It is like having an un-named (and un-numbered) asteroid between Mars and Jupiter, with an orbit just like several thousand others that differ only in their assigned name. But this precisely gives information if one is able to distinguish between categories.

If we think that Mars represents the "going out" of an individual (the same as Venus represents the "going in"), and think of Jupiter as more transcendental ethical and moral *personal* concerns (education, religion, politics, etc.), then the swarm of asteroids between Mars and Jupiter represents a large collectivity of organized individuals working at the same level and dealing with a multitude of institutions and social networking that make up civilized life, what is called the "division of labor" in a society. All main-belt asteroids work at this level.

All "regular" Ceres and Vesta-like asteroids have very well-behaved nearly circular orbits moving between Mars and Jupiter.  They are all "bounded" by social institutions, half-way between individual self-assertion (Mars) and the social structure (Jupiter/Saturn).  They are all "institutionalized", and represent different aspects of our social life, of our living in an organized collectivity that strives for its continuation and cohesion (the circularity).

The role of Pluto is wildly different to this, as is its orbit. It works in the fringe of existence, "beyond" everything having to do with social structuring and cohesion. Its orbit is like a mutant that changes its own structure, "trespassing" the world of another planet (Neptune), "crossing" it, now being an intruder inside the orbit of Neptune, "impregnating" it, now being far away beyond everything known, in a frozen, un-human world.

Like Neptune, Pluto belongs to a world that is almost beyond the reach of an individual, a more primal world beyond social institutions that challenges our sense of structure and engulfs us in its vastness, illimitability, and fatality. If Neptune represents our bondage to this illimitability, our sense of resignation and acceptance of a "destiny" bounded by the complexity of history and social evolution, Pluto comes in --like Death itself -- and "cracks" this bondage, liberating us from it. It penetrates Neptune to impregnate it and transform it.

As a matter of fact, Neptune and Pluto, together with all the plutinos, represent a unity. They are dynamically synchronized (3 cycles of Neptune are exactly 2 cycles of Pluto and the plutinos, what in astronomy is called "resonant orbits"), they work together, as different aspects of the same historical/dialectical process: the engulfing and ego-dissolving, universalizing action of time, history, and evolution, and the cracking and penetrating power, the impregnation or visitation, the passion that breaks our bondage to history, that brings out the transformation, the mutation, the agent of evolution.

Because of their smaller size, plutinos probably potentiate and specialize this cracking and impregnation function of Pluto. One example may serve to illustrate this, concerning the role of 2000EB173, the largest of the Plutinos so far (one-half the size of Pluto's binary Charon).

It is a curious fact of history that two of the most influential of men were born the same day: Abraham Lincoln and Charles Darwin. They were both born Febrauary 12, 1809, when the Sun was in exact conjunction with 2000EB173 (I have already mentioned this here in this forum). At 12h GMT the positions are:

EB173 = 23Aq11
Sun   = 23Aq26

Both, from very different realms, "cracked" the world of unquestioned social/scientific and moral assumptions, impregnating it with powerful ideas that changed and shaped our world today. Both dealt with issues that were very vast and primal in their implications and consequences, issues that resulted in profound social and moral sweeps of modern history... and both had "remote" and complex personalities that isolated them from the rest of their fellow men.

This is of course only a suggestive overview of the role and personality of these two men. I am open to your suggestions and alternative views based on more profound knowledge. (When Lincoln died, for example, the Moon was in exact conjunction with the 4th of July US 2000EB173). But I think they represent a striking example of the possible role of EB173, seen in the mundane/historical sense here, that may not be too difficult to translate o the level  of individual history or biography.


p.s. The accuracy of the positions of EB173 is good, because there are observations since 1996.

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:47:24 -0600
Subject: Darwin - 2000 EB173

As an exercise, here are some associations that I feel relate to EB173, that come to me as comments to the article on Darwin from the Britannica. The background is what I wrote in the previous post:

--the realm of the Big Mother
--the impersonal mother, remoteness, vastness
--the search for rebirth
--the "pull" of the infinite
--the transcendental love of Mother Earth
--deep love of knowledge and of the whole of Creation.
    NOTE: here more probable:   Mercury=10Pi16/Ceres=12Pi25/ Pluto=13Pi37
--the intellectual or spiritual isolation
--the transmutation of species
--the spiritual division within himself


--all the abuses, extremes, and distortions of Darwinism (e.g., social Darwinism: "survival of the fittest" in human society).

from the Britannica:

<<The conflict between his science and his realization of what publication would imply for the society he was so much a part of manifested itself in physical pain. The once adventurous young naturalist was a semi-invalid before his 40th year... Darwin's illness... appeared in force as soon as he began his first [kept secret] transmutation notebook... during the last years of his life, when he... no longer speculated about evolution, he experienced the best health since his years at Cambridge.>>


Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:05:44 -0600
Subject: Lincoln - 2000 EB173

Along the same lines, here are my associations in the case of Lincoln:

--universality of his ideas and of his "eternal appeal"

--his mother died when he was 9. same as Darwin, whose mother died when he was 8. But in Darwin, this loss was transformed into a transcendental love for knowledge of earth's impersonal and "eternal" processes. Lincoln's father, on the other hand, brought a new wife, who became especially fond of him and who he called "angel mother"; therefore, he was not impersonal and detached like Darwin. This gave him more confidence in himself, and instead of incarnating an impersonal and "remote" principle as in Darwin (a transcendental mother), Lincoln's central concern was <<the capability of a people to govern themselves>>, a more direct and immediate interest. Darwin represents a set of principles or ideas that sweep away individuality (the Great Mother), whereas Lincoln became himself the idea, a living myth, a figure of everlasting charm for everybody (the close and personal mother).

--early in life he was a skeptic and a free thinker (more confidence in himself, whereas Darwin took refuge in the universality of science)

--Lincoln=more solar, Darwin=more EB173

--he saw himself as an "instrument of providence".

--his devotion to the cause of personal freedom.

--posthumous growth of his reputation

--assassinated on Good Friday: crucifixion metaphor.

--rise from the lowest depths to the greatest heights

This is all very sketchy, but maybe it can bring at least a momentary glimpse into the nature of EB173. The negative manifestation can be seen incarnate in the Civil War. A great exaltation of the solar principle is seen in the case of Lincoln, an overshadowing of the Sun in the case of Darwin.


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