| Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:42:49 -0600
Subject: Re: Koresh, Nessus, Chiron
[...] ... Thank you for this. The Koresh affair is one of my favourites, and I will try to examine it with the Centaurs.
Do you know the date when they all died at the fire?
He may have the Moon conjunct Pholus, too. I wonder, if Nessus here is announcing apocalypse... and how Nessus was incarnated in the #$^%$#!&* (I don't dare to say what I think here) people from the federal agencies that managed the affair.
I feel this is VERY centaurean stuff. I'm so glad you reminded me of it!
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:33:29 -0600
I found a timeline of the Waco siege: it started February 28, 1993, at around 9:30 a.m., when the officials tried to enter by shooting and were shot back and killed (Uranus and Neptune were both in 20 Capricorn). The Moon then was in 28,14 Taurus, which corrected for precession from Koresh's birth is 27,45 Taurus. Koresh's natal Nessus is 27,15 Taurus, and 1995DW2 is 28,00 Taurus.
[NOTE: birth data of David Koresh <The Taeger Collection cites Rodden who cites grandmother for sometime after 8am (8:49am CST is used) Aug. 17,1959, Houston> --provided by Margaret Almazova to the forum]
At his birth, Koresh had Uranus in 17,08 Leo and 1998QM107 in 16,52 Leo; when he died, April 19 1993 at 12:05, transiting Chiron was in 16,43 Leo (precession-corrected), and Saturn was in 27,46 Aquarius (precession-corrected), in exact square to the Nessus/DW2 conjunction at birth. Additionally, transiting Nessus was in 4,44 Scorpio (precession corrected), conjunct his natal Neptune in 4,27 Scorpio.
This is as far as Centaurs go for transits. Pluto was in 24,20 Scorpio (p.c.) at his death, in exact conjunction with natal Jupiter and exact square to his Sun. Converse Neptune was transiting in exact conjunction with the Sun from the time of the first shooting, Feb. 28, to his death in April 19th (25,11 Leo p.c.). Also, in converse transits when he died, we find: Mars 21.14 Scorpio, Saturn 21,30 Scorpio, Sun 22,27 Sagittarius, Uranus 22,06 Pisces.
I feel one could relate his natal Sun/Chiron very close opposition to the "New Revelation-Covenant" type of thinking, triggered by the square with Jupiter. The Nessus applying square forms the grand cross that carries this religious vision and was the decisive apocalyptic consumation. Pluto/Saturn sharply brought this to a conclusion. These solar aspects, seen psychologically, represent well the substitutions for the absense of the father. The federal government really managed well in his immense stupidity (in my opinion) to incarnate to perfection the Nessonian Beast and justify his immolation.
Moon/Pholus I would associate to his outcast life in the fringes of society and the law. Personally he has no life, he is wounded, a homeless orphan, a "religious clown". The identification with Pholus was acted-out and became the life-style at his peculiar wolf-like community. It also gave him a special carisma and ability to fascinate or enrapture others with his private vision and his way of life (Moon).
This is far as it goes, merely tentative. I would love to have feedback on this!
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:16:41 -0600
One more important data item about Waco and Centaurs:
The day the siege started, February 28, 1993, Mars was in 9,43 Cancer, in conjunction with 1997CU26 in 9, 14 Cancer. This Centaur was still there (9,16) the day Koresh died, when 1994TA reached 9,10 Aries!
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:06:58 -0600
I won't go with the idea that Nessus is only negative or that David Koresh can be seen in isolation from the system that he opposed, a government that acted like Godzilla. Nessus obviously is two-sided, like every other astrological indicator. Nature kills you and gives you life as well, and I feel that Nessus is a good representative of this. There's nothing good or evil by itself. The same with Pholus. The Indian warriors that exterminated general Custer and his men were seen as the incarnation of evil by many, but do we see them like that now?
Jim Jones' Guyana massacre is a case in point. You will see a tremendous Nessus there (13 May 1931, 10 PM CST). But I cannot accept an interpretation that sees someone or something as the incarnation of evil in isolation from the social forces that produced the monster. I don't want to get into politics here, but you can see this principle acting in the world: world powers creating monstrous social situations in small countries that they exploit. The US always does this, later to denounce as evil what they have created, without facing the responsibility. The world powers created Hussein, for example.
To understand Nessus, we have to understand the process that has created it. "Death wish" is fine, but it is only a label if we don't understand how it appears and why. There is an immense vulnerability in Nessus, in my opinion, that has to be understood. How do you think this death wish came about? If you can answer that, then you will see all the complexity involved and the fallacy of labels. Why do you think, for example, that all those followers of Koresh and Jones were able to go to such extremes? Why were they so hurt that they changed their will to live for the opposite?
A lot can be understood, I feel, from the psychology of rape, and
the victim-victimizer dynamics.
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:54:08 -0600
Re-reading the data, I realized that the Waco siege "started February 28, 1993, at around 9:30 a.m., when the officials tried to enter by shooting and were shot back and killed" "...The Moon then was in 28,14 Taurus, which corrected for precession from Koresh's birth is 27,45 Taurus. Koresh's natal Nessus is 27,15 Taurus, and 1995DW2 is 28,01 Taurus."
I think this is related to the present transit of Chiron in 28 Scorpio, conjunct Mars.
Who is going to quarrel about politics? I followed the siege by TV, followed the Senate hearings, and now am becoming aware of the recent pieces of information. The facts are all available in detail in the Internet... but we know that, even if the facts are the same, people will form opposite opinions. All we can do is make our case and let others form their own opinions...
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 19:58:52 -0600
For the record. I don't defend Koresh, and never liked him. But I will never buy considering something in isolation from the forces that brought it about, in this case, the Waco siege and deaths. It is in the interpretation of what these forces are, where we differ, and this has nothing to do with astrology but with ideology.
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 09:35: 42 -0600
Richard Nolle provides the data of Timothy McVeigh, and the source given is Louis Rodden's Data News #23, category "B": April 23, 1968, 8:30 a.m. EST in Lockport, N.Y. He has:
Saturn = 17,40 Aries
As for the centaurs:
Moon = 18,12 Virgo
This lunar configuration is "obscure" and destructive, and is combined with the "hard" Venus. I will try to look later for the positions at the time of the Oklahoma bombing, but for now I have only the Waco data (Siege started Feb 28 1993 at around 9:30 a.m., fire havoc was April 19 at around 12:30 p.m.):
siege Mars = 9,43 Cancer
fire Nessus = 3,31 Scorpio
Koresh Nessus = 27,15 Taurus
McVeigh has a strong T-Cross in his chart, that was triggered by Pluto at Waco:
Jupiter = 25,50 Leo
tr. Pluto at Waco's siege = 25,31 Scorpio!
So we see how strong the Waco events might have affected McVeigh, and how this is brought to a strong focus through the centaurs.
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 19:52: 56 -0600
I found the date and time of the bombing: April 19, 1995 at 9:02 a.m., the day of the anniversary of the Waco fire.
We find, among many other things, an interesting conjunction:
Sun = 29,06 Aries
Chiron = 20,45 Virgo Rx
(recall the prominence of Chiron and TL66 in the chart of the atom bomb)
and linking the bombing and Waco with Nessus:
Node = 5,37 Scorpio
and giving strength to the Nessus "key", we note:
Koresh's Nessus = 27,15 Taurus
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:38:03 -0600
Pluto entered Sagittarius first Jan 17, 1995, then went retrograde and stationed in 27,49 Scorpio August 8, 1995, to enter Saggitarius again Nov 27, 1995.
So this is area Chiron has been and is transiting...
But back in early March in the forum, Zane was mentioning the very rare Nessus/Pluto conjunction, which happens only twice between 1700-2020. The first was in 11,31 Sagittarius and happened December 7, 1753. The second was in 0,41 Sagittarius, and happened November 27, 1995:
Nessus enters Sagittarius = Nov. 20, 1995
So, centaur-wise, what Chiron is transiting these weeks is the point of this very rare conjunction, which adds an interesting dimension to it. Presumably, people who have personal points in the chart very near this conjunction point did not experience anything "nice" in late 1995 and early 1996, to say the least...
Pluto has been terminating whatever Nessus initiated, and now comes Chiron to... heal? or at least, as Annaly just said, will bring it out into the open...
Do you remember "the massacre at Ruby Ridge" in 1992, when a U.S. Marshall shot in the back and killed the 13-year old son of Randy Weaver, and later hidden FBI snipers shot and killed his wife while she was holding her baby with both arms? This happened between August 21 and August 22, 1992, with the Sun in 28-30 Leo (last quarter Moon 28,35 Taurus the 21st). It is also where Chiron has been transiting now, including the recent Mars/Chiron conjunction in 28 Scorpio.
This was the time when Pholus and Nessus were being discovered... it can be checked against Koresh Nessus in 28 Taurus, Wacos' siege Moon in 28 Taurus, Oklahoma bombing's Nessus in 28 Scorpio. I believe it is an extreme and dramatic model of the "invasion" and the "trespassing" that centaurs represent at their worst, and sheds light on other similar instances of violence and death going on now and in recent years.
The Sun was in 0,07 Virgo when <<FBI snipers took their positions around the Weaver cabin a few minutes after 5 p.m. on Aug. 22. Within an hour, every adult in the cabin was either dead or severely wounded -- even though they had not fired a shot at any FBI agent. Randy Weaver, Mr. Harris, and 16-year-old Sara Weaver stepped out of the cabin a few minutes before 6 p.m. to go to the shed where Sammy's body lay. FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi shot Randy Weaver in the back. As Randy Weaver, Mr. Harris, and Sara Weaver struggled to get back into the cabin, Vicki Weaver stood in the cabin doorway holding a baby. Agent Horiuchi fired again; his bullet passed through a window in the door, hit Vicki Weaver in the head, killing her instantly, and then hit Mr. Harris in the chest.>> [The Wall Street Journal, June 30, 1995, p. A14. "Ruby Ridge: The Justice Report". By James Bovard]
The dates and positions of the Nessus/Pluto conjunctions and oppositions 1700-2020 can be found here:
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:17:17 -0600
Below is one version of story for the benefit of those that don't know it. Perhaps we can take this event and use it as "radical" for other similar events.
I don't know where Ruby Ridge is in Idaho, so I will just assume Pacific Daylight time (+7h). This first confrontation where the Marshall and Weaver's 13 year-old son were killed was August 21, but I don't have the time. One account says <<11: 30 p.m., more than twelve hours after the shooting>>, so I will assume 11 a.m.(18h GMT):
Moon = 2,58 Gemini. (it was in last quarter at 28,35 Taurus that day at 3 a.m.). I think we can later check transiting Nessus and transiting Pluto in the opposite side in Saggitarius in the charts of many other similar events after 1996.
Sun = 28,55 Leo
Mercury = 10,27 Leo
The next day was the massacre, at 6 p.m.:
Mars 17,52 Gemini
Sun = 0,09 Virgo
and the cover-up:
Mercury = 11,52 Leo
The Wall Street Journal, June 30, 1995,
The 1992 confrontation between federal agents and the Randy Weaver family in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, has become one of the most controversial and widely discussed examples of the abuse of federal power. The Justice Department completed a 542-page investigation on the case last year but has not yet made the report public. However, the report was acquired by Legal Times newspaper, which this week placed the text on the Internet. The report reveals that federal officials may have acted worse than even some of their harshest critics imagined.
This case began after Randy Weaver was entrapped, as an Idaho jury concluded, by an undercover Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms agent to sell him sawed-off shotguns.
While federal officials have claimed that the violent confrontation between the Weavers and the government began when the Weavers ambushed federal marshals, the report tells a very different story. A team of six U.S. marshals, split into two groups, trespassed onto Mr. Weaver's land on Aug. 21, 1992. One of the marshals threw rocks at the Weaver's cabin to see how much noise was required to agitate the Weaver's dogs. A few minutes later, Randy Weaver, Kevin Harris, and 13-year-old Sammy Weaver came out of the cabin and began following their dogs. Three U.S. marshals were soon tearing through the woods.
At one point, U.S. Marshal Larry Cooper "told the others that it was ['expletive deleted'] for them to continue running and that he did not want to 'run down the trail and get shot in the back.' He urged them to take up defensive positions. The others agreed.... William Degan ... took a position behind a stump...."
As Sammy Weaver and Kevin Harris came upon the marshals, gunfire erupted. Sammy was shot in the back and killed while running away from the scene (probably by Marshal Cooper, according to the report), and Marshal Degan was killed by Mr. Harris. The jury concluded that Mr. Harris's action was legitimate self-defense; the Justice report concluded it was impossible to know who shot first.
Several places in the report deal with
the possibility of a government coverup. After the firefight between the
marshals and the Weavers and Mr. Harris, the surviving marshals were taken
away to rest and recuperate. The report observed, "We question the wisdom
of keeping the marshals together at the condominium for several hours, while
awaiting interviews with the FBI. Isolating them in that manner created the
appearance and generated allegations that they were fabricating stories and
colluding to cover up
After the death of the U.S. marshal, the FBI was called in. A source of continuing fierce debate across America is: Did the FBI set out to apprehend and arrest Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris -- or simply to kill them? Unfortunately, the evidence from the Justice Department report is damning in the extreme on this count.
The report noted, "We have been told by observers on the scene that law enforcement personnel made statements that the matter would be handled quickly and that the situation would be 'taken down hard and fast.' " The FBI issued Rules of Engagement that declared that its snipers "can and should" use deadly force against armed males outside the cabin.
The report noted that a member of an FBI SWAT team from Denver "remembered the Rules of Engagement as 'if you see 'em, shoot 'em.' " The task force report noted, "since those Rules which contained 'should' remained in force at the crisis scene for days after the August 22 shooting, it is inconceivable to us that FBI Headquarters remained ignorant of the exact wording of the Rules of Engagement during that entire period."
The report concluded that the FBI Rules of Engagement at Ruby Ridge flagrantly violated the U.S. Constitution: "The Constitution allows no person to become 'fair game' for deadly force without law enforcement evaluating the threat that person poses, even when, as occurred here, the evaluation must be made in a split second." The report portrays the rules of engagement as practically a license to kill: "The Constitution places the decision on whether to use deadly force on the individual agent; the Rules attempted to usurp this responsibility."
FBI headquarters rejected an initial operation plan because there was no provision to even attempt to negotiate the surrender of the suspects. The plan was revised to include a negotiation provision -- but subsequent FBI action made that provision a nullity. FBI snipers took their positions around the Weaver cabin a few minutes after 5 p.m. on Aug. 22. Within an hour, every adult in the cabin was either dead or severely wounded -- even though they had not fired a shot at any FBI agent.
Randy Weaver, Mr. Harris, and 16-year-old Sara Weaver stepped out of the cabin a few minutes before 6 p.m. to go to the shed where Sammy's body lay. FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi shot Randy Weaver in the back. As Randy Weaver, Mr. Harris, and Sara Weaver struggled to get back into the cabin, Vicki Weaver stood in the cabin doorway holding a baby. Agent Horiuchi fired again; his bullet passed through a window in the door, hit Vicki Weaver in the head, killing her instantly, and then hit Mr. Harris in the chest.
At the subsequent trial, the government claimed that Messrs. Weaver and Harris were shot because they had threatened to shoot at a helicopter containing FBI officials. Because of insufficient evidence, the federal judge threw out the charge that Messrs. Weaver and Harris threatened the helicopter. The Justice report noted, "The SIOC [Strategic Information and Operations Center at FBI headquarters] Log indicates that shots were fired during the events of August 22.... We have found no evidence during this inquiry that shots fired at any helicopter during the Ruby Ridge crisis. The erroneous entry was never corrected." (The Idaho jury found Messrs. Weaver and Harris innocent on almost all charges.)
The Justice Department task force expressed grave doubts about the wisdom of the FBI strategy: "From information received at the Marshals Service, FBI management had reason to believe that the Weaver/Harris group would respond to a helicopter in the vicinity of the cabin by coming outside with firearms. Notwithstanding this knowledge, they placed sniper/observers on the adjacent mountainside with instructions that they could and should shoot armed members of the group, if they came out of the cabin. Their use of the helicopter near the cabin invited an accusation that the helicopter was intentionally used to draw the Weaver group out of the cabin."
The task force was extremely critical of Agent Horiuchi's second shot: "Since the exchange of gunfire [the previous day], no one at the cabin had fired a shot. Indeed, they had not even returned fire in response to Horiuchi's first shot. Furthermore, at the time of the second shot, Harris and others outside the cabin were retreating, not attacking. They were not retreating to an area where they would present a danger to the public at large...."
Regarding Agent Horiuchi's killing of Vicki Weaver, the task force concluded, "[B]y fixing his cross hairs on the door when he believed someone was behind it, he placed the children and Vicki Weaver at risk, in violation of even the special Rules of Engagement.... In our opinion he needlessly and unjustifiably endangered the persons whom he thought might be behind the door."
The Justice Department task force was especially
appalled that the adults were gunned down before receiving any warning or
demand to surrender: "While the operational plan included a provision for
a surrender demand, that demand was not made until after the shootings....
The lack of a planned 'call out' as the sniper/observers deployed is significant
because the Weavers were known to leave the cabin armed when vehicles or
Mr. Bovard writes often on public policy.
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:59:19 -0600
An account of FBI history by Sharon Mallory (John Jay College Of Criminal Justice Sec: PAD 747 Date: May 19 1997) says: <<On July 26, 1908, Bonaparte ordered them to report to Chief Examiner Stanley W. Finch. This action is celebrated as the beginning of the FBI.>>
Using 18 h GMT, we have, centaur-wise:
Mars = 11,51 Leo
Sun = 3,18 Leo
But the account goes on: < <Attorney General George Wickersham, Bonaparte's successor, named the force the Bureau of Investigation on March 16, 1909. At this time, the title of Chief Examiner was changed to Chief of the Bureau Of Investigation.>>
This date may provide a better fit. At 18h GMT:
CU26 = 24,48 Pisces
1995GO = 0,43 Virgo
Node = 20,52 Gemini
Good stuff for further research!
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:08:23 -0600
At 11:15 09/27/1999 , Mark Holmes wrote: <<...Idaho is part on Pacific time(GMT -8 hrs), part on Mountain time(GMT -7 hrs). Boundary County, where Ruby Ridge is located, is on Pacific time.>>
Thanks. Since I don't know the exact place and the exact hour of
the first confrontation, all that I am taking is the approximate Moon position
around 11 a.m., which is 1-2 Gemini. The importance of it is that it could
be used to check the hypothesis that it is a "radical" of other similar events
of federal government vs people violent confrontations. Another candidate
1 degree mutable is one
This brings to mind the Vietnam era, and that day when the police shot and killed a student protesting in the university campus... do you or someone remembers the exact date, time and place when that occurred?
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:01:22 -0600
Judith B Burns wrote: <<On May 4, 1970 at approximately 12:25 PM (in Kent, Ohio), 78 National Guardsmen opened fire on a group of students who were protesting the Vietnam War. They fired approximately 67 bullets in 13 seconds into the group of students, killing 4 (2 men, 2 women) and wounding 9. >>
Thanks a lot for the data and for the link. I am not American, but I can feel how much that day is written forever in US history, and what a wound it is for many of you!
According to my edition of the American Atlas, that was 12:25 p.m. EDT, +4h. I use here only conjunction and oppositions of less than 1 degree, unless there is a T-cross:
Kent killings Pholus = 0,39 Pisces
Kent killings Uranus = 5,17 Libra
Kent killings node = 9,52 Pisces
Kent killings Pluto = 24,56 Virgo
Kent killings 94TA = 28,41 Virgo
The relationships involving 26+ bodies can be very numerous and loose focus and significance, so I think that restricting oneself to conjunction/opposition or T-Square exact axis like this allows us to see the principal forces at work.