Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 18:00:53 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] TD10, CY118, sdo's


TD10 is very unique. It belongs to the scattered disk (period about 1000 years), but at perihelion it penetrates "the world" and gets very close to Saturn, without "touching" it. I like to think of it as Ixion, the father of the centaurs, tied forever to a turning wheel. It already has a number (29981), so it is at this moment the only numbered centaur (or half-centaur) that has not received a name. It reached perihelion October 31, 1999.

I have very few examples of it. Silvia Plath had it in exact conjunction with the Sun:

Sun = 4,10 Scorpio
TD10 = 4,43 Scorpio

So, if someone is familiar with her writings or poems, perhaps a clue about its meaning could be obtained. Collectively, it was in exact conjunction with the Sun, also in Scorpio, during the famous "War of the Worlds" broadcast in 1938:

Sun = 6,57 Scorpio
TD10 = 6,55 Scorpio

An invasion by aliens is a very good description of its orbit: coming from outside it penetrates our world and clashes with it. This is not unlike what has invaded the US...

If we imagine the Twin Towers and the Pentagon as symbols of the US Sun, then an exact square of an object like TD10 would look as a very accurate description of what has happened. A conjunction would be different, the conjunction would be more like a chemical attack because it "infuses" the Sun with it, debilitating the Sun, while the square is a challenge that puts the Sun to fight.

Now consider 1996PW, like TD10 but penetrating much deeper, up to the distance of the Mars/Jupiter asteroid belt, the "skin" that protects the inner solar system. It is also much more cometary, about 10 times smaller. Reiterating what I wrote 18 Sep 2001, if we take the Sun of the 4th of July 1776, then, corrected for precession, one gets for September 11 2001:

radix Sun = 12,45 Cancer
transiting 1996PW = 12,07 Cancer

Also, at the time of the attack:

Sun  =18Vi51

So here we have perhaps the main clue to the meaning of the attacks that day, i.e., in the world of the scattered disk, and we have not yet even started to explore it.

Methodologically, CZ118 and CY118 could be seen as the Twin Towers one next to the other, squared by Phaethon (the airplanes) from 18,53 Gemini. This is a perfect description (for the Phaethon symbolism here, recall my post from 14 Sep 2001), except that we don't know what CZ118 and CY118 mean. However, this is the central point of my approach: that what happened informs us about their meaning. That they mean what happened, because the event "incarnates" --at least-- 1999CY118. Something like:

Twin Towers down = Sun/CY118

The horoscope, in my approach based on focal determination and Occam's Razor, is telling us: this is where the main answer is! But since we do not want to explore in the dark, in the unknown, we look somewhere else where there is some more light. There are too many unknown bodies, let's not complicate matters!

But we know that scattered disk objects like CY118 are rather unique and distinct. And so is what happened on September 11. So we can use "September 11" as the criterion for selecting CY118. We would not be taking just any transneptunian, we would be taking the one that represents "September 11".

And we are not clue-less about what it may mean, because we have the symbolism of CY118's orbital domain (the scattered disk) to match the symbolism of September 11th. We saw destruction and death potentiated, we saw a scene that before that belonged only to science fiction apocalyptic films. The Sun "incarnated" CY118.

And learning something about CY118 can shed light on TD10, who comes from "there" to "here".

Let me share some preliminary thoughts I had on scattered disk objects. They are part of my study on the discovery of Tutankhamen's tomb:

<<The scattered disk objects in particular have a type of motion or orbit that suggests such a thing, since they seem to reach into "this universe" when at perihelion, as if coming from the invisible and the unknown, or from epochs long gone. Like comets, they "disappear" for long periods of centuries or millennia and reappear briefly as they reach the realm of Neptune and Pluto. They look like reincarnations from another world or of very remote things, like mummies risen from the dead, like King Tutankhamen who reappeared after being sealed from human eyes for 3000 years.>>

The words chosen are adapted to the context. But what happens when we adapt them to the "11 September" context?

I am open to suggestions, but what comes to me is the image of the CIA covert (transneptune) training, financing and arming terrorists (terror=transneptune) in Afghanistan, that later "come back" as the apocalyptic (sdo's) enemies of America. And then the circle continues as the response is even more terror, like Ixion tied to the wheel turning and turning, faster each time.



Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:09:43 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] WTC CY118 Incarnation

In the WTC attack, CY118 dynamically over-rides CZ118, which stays behind. This is what suggests to me the 2 towers, coming down one after the other. We can also think in the "mental preparations" of the terrorists the day before (CZ118), and the actual conclusion (CY118).

Perhaps the fact that they had come together and were "ignited" by the Sun is why the effects were so powerful. And since it is a conjunction, what we saw was the beginning of an era. In other words, the WTC attack marked the starting point of something new, like a seed that will evolve, and the best illustration of this "birth" we have in the horoscope is this double conjunction with the Sun.

Something came to an end abruptly on September 11. What came to replace it, in my opinion, is the political, economical, and military insanity that I expected of Mr. Bush anyway, with terrorist attack or not. This was discussed months before during the time of the election in another list, where a political astrologer, with good reasons and providing the references, justifiably concluded: <<I guess we are on enroute towards the USA Pluto return with the Bushes (the Don Corleonies of America).>>

NOTE: if interested in these references, you can examine the thread "Bush & associates" in the ACT archives of Nov. 2000.

At that time we also discussed a remarkable "in mundo" configuration in Bush's chart. If you check with Riyal the "MundoPla" positions of his chart (July 6, 1946, 7:26 a.m. EDT, 41n07/72w56), you will find:

Mar = 14,51 Tau
Ura = 14,51
Aqu Plu = 29,51 Pis

This means that Pluto is only 0,09' from the Eastern horizon (i.e., exactly rising) and that Mars and Uranus are exactly (0,00') square each other in the exact middle of the mundane quadrants (0,09') , on equal distances from the horizon and with rising Pluto exactly on their midpoint.

For this, you can examine the thread "parans, mundoscope" and "mundane... in mundo" of Nov 2000 in the ACT archives (they should be in the Matrix "New Age" site). At that time, Ed Fallis (I give his name because I think his prediction was very accurate), after bringing out this configuration, concluded:

<<I truly expect that if Bush is elected, that Pl = Ma/Ur configuration around the eastern horizon (placidus) is going to come into play in a dramatic way.>>

Interestingly, Bush was born in the anniversary of the Boyd "War" chart (6 July 1775). Now check this:

Bush CY118 = 27,59 Gemini
Bush Asbolus = 27,54 Gemini
WTC Moon = 27,18 Gemini (prec. corrected - 28,05 un-corrected)

USA Boyd chart (precessed to the time of Bush's birth):
Moon = 23,17 Libra
CY118 = 23,48 Aries

The Twin Towers coming down mark also the starting point of what came later, i.e., the USA bombing of Afghanistan, which is the escalation (="spiralling potentiation") which I associate with the orbital motion of sdo's. It is making evil stronger and a lot worse than it already was, making the problem deeper.



Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:07:35 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] WTC CY118 and the Moon

I will try to write a simple explanation here of the role of the Moon as I perceive it, in order to complement the explanations I have already given about the meaning of the Sun. Since it is much harder to me to write about the Moon, I expect that it will take more than one e-mail and your questioning and criticism to have an acceptable explanation.

In its most general sense, the Moon refers to our very personal "world", our web of relationships that nurture us, our "belonging" to a system, a community, a family. The Moon is like the roots and branches of a tree, extending sidewise and establishing an "existence", a "personal life" that is defined in terms of our relationships; and like the roots, the Moon "binds" us to our many weaknesses and to our ultimate dependence on nurturing and on "the other" in order to "be somebody".

In a natal chart, any planet or asteroid in exact conjunction with the Moon will be "absorbed" and will manifest in the feminine or receptive side of our nature. To use a dramatic image, the planet or asteroid is "eaten" or "devoured" by the Moon, so that the planet's substance becomes more "sensual" and expresses itself in our needs, our vulnerabilities, our dreams and desires, our personal entanglements, or daily living in the company of other people. The planet in this situation will determine the "tone" of our instinctual or psychic life.

Although the words we choose are always very relative, we can say, in this context, that the Sun is never entangled in such a way, it never "absorbs" the planet. The Sun may be over-powered or alienated by the planet, but it is never "corrupted" or enmeshed like the Moon.

The Moon is not a thinker or a creator like the Sun. It responds and adapts, it reacts, feels, fancies and cries, like the vulnerable child we all have inside.

Now I am in a position to understand the possible meaning of the Moon in the chart of the WTC attack. It represents the nations feelings and reaction, the "resentment" and fear that comes from having been hurt, the sense of "family union", the people, those who are more vulnerable, the nation's "citizens" or children, the need for protection etc.

There are multiple ways of interpreting this...



Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:05:20 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] WTC CY118 and the Moon, 2

There may be other very critical conjunctions between the chart of President Bush and the chart of the WTC attack. For the moment I will focus on the WTC Moon / Bush Asbolus connection, and my main interest is to try to develop the significance of a lunar focus as opposed to a solar focus.

The president of a country is a solar figure because he is its supreme ruler, and he "stands for" that country, he represents or "incarnates" the whole nation (this is the surrogation doctrine). But from another perspective, the president (or king, or whatever) is also a lunar figure because he (or she) would be nothing if it were not for "his" people, represented by the Moon. The Sun is the King or Queen, the dignified 10th-house royalty (I am not considering the houses here), and the Moon is the people, the nation, the 4th-house motherland.

The lunar side of the ruler is his "image" in the eyes of his people, his charisma or popularity; it is also his ability or incapacity to respond to the needs of the people he is ruling. He exists because he (or she, the Queen) is said to represent what the people want...

ja! ja! ja!

This is the situation of all politicians, even of the most autocratic ones like many dictators; if the needs of the people are ignored, there will be a disaster sooner or later.

The "personality cult" of autocrats like Saddam Hussein or Stalin, in this context, is no different from the deliberate image manipulations through propaganda carried on by many corrupt western "democratic" politicians. This image is not solar but lunar. It results from an exploitation of people's needs and desires. The ruler here is not the "sun hero" but the server of the people, in spite of the faked "heroic dimensions" that they would like to have.

A real "hero" or leader (in Spanish "caudillo") is a strong and stern solitary figure, and is something very different. He is spontaneously given a mythical stature even before his death. He stands aside from the rest of the mortals and is in company with the gods. Death only strengthens his stature. Like the mystical experience where the soul marries with Christ, we witness in the case of the true hero a marriage with his people, who become like his soul. The Sun and the Moon...

This dynamics can be seen also at the personality level.



Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:16:29 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] WTC CY118 and the Moon, 3

Psychologically, the natural condition of the Moon is to be soft and pliable, always moist and fertile, ready to assume the shape of the higher solar model, like a small healthy child opening his arms, or like an affectionate animal.

But in the process she often ends up hurt and hardens in self-defense, when challenged by a negative environment that leaves her traumatized and insecure. The Moon-child then feels abandoned and refuses to stretch his arms asking for warmth from others. The tenderness and "skin sensuality" of the Moon hides in self-protection, and we see instead the reactive neurotic that lives in a constant state of fear, with the Sun sleeping somewhere below the Moon and the inner frightened child alienated from the outside world and controlling the personality.

Under those negative lunar circumstances, parental or political empowerment, the power to affect and modify the lives of others,  is distorted and becomes very dangerous, with devastating effects. The feelings of insecurity are transformed into immature power games. The person is "out of phase", and strives to protect himself through a strong need or desire to control the lives of others. The other's physical weakness and submission becomes the mechanism through which the superficial individual fights his own feelings of inferiority. One needs the other's weakness in order to feel strong, the other's sickness in order to feel healthy. "The other" is used as a scapegoat to avoid facing my own weakness. I need the other's weakness in order to maintain an inner sense of strength.

This describes the situation of many politicians with a very weak Sun and an empowered Moon. This "strength" is a fake. It is a damaged, distorted, and corrupted Moon that needs to be healed. It has nothing to do with the Sun. It is, in fact, a sort of anti-Sun, suggesting astrologically the realm of Pluto and the Black Moon, the realm of "The Great Mother". Astrologically --besides the Black Moon-- it is something we would expect from very "heavy" lunar contacts,  critical aspects of the Moon with Pluto and with Plutonian asteroids, i.e., the transneptunian and centaurs, the "monsters" of the sky.

NOTE: I believe that there is also a solar "enlightened" aspect of Pluto and of the centaurs. But In this case we are referring only to their "lunar" --and specifically negative-- more reactive side.

My effort to clarify "the psychological realm of the Moon" made me realize how close the Moon is to the symbolism of water. The Moon is the "great" or "dark" waters.  It also made me realize how much of a lunar type George Bush is. This is reflected in his planetary positions:

Sun = 13,47 Cancer
Moon = 16,42 Libra
Chiron = 15,25 Libra

The square here is the conflict between the two, with the Moon "rising" over his Sun. The key role of Chiron further indicates an inner split. The Sun is not free here, it has to fight constantly against a damaging father figure, a diminished sense of masculine's worth. The price of the solar affirmation is its alienation from the Moon/Chiron side of his personality.

I think this describes very well the lunar dynamics that I have described so far.



Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:25:18 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] WTC CY118 and the Moon, final
further notes added:
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:30:46 -0600
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:59:19 -0600
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:42:56 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] ... Asbolus

One way of making a difference between the Sun and the Moon in the WTC attack, knowing that words are very relative and there are multiple ways of interpreting one single aspect, is to say that the Sun represents the "individuality", "uniqueness", and "power" of the event. We know that all this is focused on CY118. This aspect "glorifies" CY118, which is giving an escathological dimension to the event. What happened was completely unprecedented. It changed history.

The Moon, on the other hand, has to do more with the experience itself, with what it was to people or to the community that endured it:

sidereal Mars WTC = 6,41 Sagittarius
sidereal Asbolus WTC = 0,55 Sagittarius
midpoint Mars/Asbolus = 3,48 Sagittarius
sidereal Moon WTC = 3,19 Gemini!

Bush natal sidereal Asbolus = 3,55 Gemini!
Bush natal sidereal CY118 = 4,00 Gemini

Here I am using the sidereal zodiac only to make some comparisons later. Logically in the tropical zodiac it would be exactly the same in the above case:

midpoint Mars/Asbolus = 28,34 Sagittarius
Moon = 28,05 Gemini (orb = 0,29')

This means that it was an "Asbolus" type of violence (Mars), an Asbolus aggression or attack. CY118 gives it an apocalyptic significance or connotation, but the experience itself (Moon) was of the Asbolus type. The very strong Moon=Mars/Asbolus of the WTC attack is recycled and reproduced by George Bush's chart.

The most grisly event to have happened in American soil is what has given this man the legitimacy in front of the American nation that a shameful election could not give him. The CY118/Asbolus conjunction of Mr. Bush conjunct the Sep.11th attack, and the subsequent American response, may be seen --in accordance with nature of the sdo's-- as humanity's regression or (return) to its darkest ages.

Since I cannot "feel" Asbolus very well yet, I must make use of some of my keywords based on previous research:

"oven, igneous, ash and smoke"
---These words provide a very accurate physical description of the Septembee 11th scenario.

"dreams, mist, fog"
---This is what it was, only very violent and aggressive (Mars). One can easily add here "dust".

"hiding, secrets, mystery, conspiracy"
---there is a lot, a lot of it.

"tabu, sin, confession"
---The holy shrine of Americans, believed to be inviolable, was desecrated. The man who allegedly did this became the latest personification of evil, the latest madmen's version of the incarnation of The Beast. But, also, the crime was committed because America sinned. Each side calls the other "satanic". Each side believes and openly declares that killing and murder is amply justified for moral reasons.

"torment, punishment, anguish, bewilderment, bleeding hearts"
---this is what it was and what it is and what it will be... Angor, timor, horror, ac pavor.. ("Anguish, fear, horror, and terror", from Carl Orff's "De Temporum Fine Comoedia). These words describe the *experience* (Moon opposition Mars-Asbolus) --as opposed to the meaning (Sun/CY118) of them.

"fusion, alchemy, density"
--Fire for the blood and blood for the fire until, the ice penetrates and destroys the flower.

Presidents and whole nations are now adoring The Beast...

Juan Asbolus

NOTE: I didn't feel anything at first, and after following the associations of the keywords I felt as if I was inside the mist, and associations began to pour. But they are only nebulous sensations, while I have a more autonomous mental understanding of the others. The "mist and fog", etc. with which Asbolus presents itself to me may be indeed one of its characteristics and it blocks my mental grasping of it, like a mist of sensations and visions that appears and then fades away... Probably this is related to the fact that the planet involved with Asbolus in my chart is the Moon. But I also think that the nature of Asbolus itself is playing a part in my difficulty to conceptualize it. I feel that Asbolus has to do with "visions"...


Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:23:30 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Afghanistan

Only in Afghanistan, the CIA spent more than 3 Billion dollars in the largest covert operation of its history during the years of the Soviet occupation. The funds, training, and weapons were given to fratricidal and venomously anti-American groups. When the Soviet Union left and collapsed soon after, nobody cared what would happen to the Afghans. The U.S. created a Frankenstein and made no provisions for dealing with the aftermath.

A commonly accepted date for Afghanistan is July 17, 1973. It is the day when Mohammed Daud Khan seized power in a virtually bloodless coup. "Daud Khan abolished the constitution of 1964 and established the Republic of Afghanistan..." [Britannica]. This is the date recommended by Nicholas Campion. I will take for reference 12h GMT.

Some striking aspects in the sidereal zodiac:

Afghanistan Mars = 22,12 Pisces
Bin Laden's Fatwa Saturn = 22,48 Pisces
George W. Bush Moon = 22,43 Virgo
George W. Bush PT13 = 22,12 Gemini
U.S. War (Boyd) Sun = 22,40 Gemini
US(Boyd)/Islam relationship Moon = 22,07 Pisces

This is "wretched" even without the centaurs, and speaks of misery and hunger, hostility, rage, angry rejection, violent confrontation, mutual accusations and attacks, and a deliberate will to harm and deal with situations very harshly.

another interesting focus is:

Afghanistan Saturn = 3,50 Gemini
sidereal Moon WTC attack = 3,19 Gemini
Bush natal sidereal Asbolus = 3,55 Gemini
Bush natal sidereal CY118 = 4,00 Gemini

American oil companies have had Afghanistan as target for decades. This of course includes the Bush-Cheney "Big Oil" interests. The Bush administration had attempted for months to intimidate the Taliban into accepting their "dream" of a big Caspian Sea pipeline running through Afghanistan, and the WTC attack happened about a month after the "negotiations" --which of course didn't include the condition of women, Bin Laden , etc-- were sabotaged by the Bush representatives after the Taliban refused to be intimidated. (see )

Political astrologer David Kesten (ACT, Nov. 13 2001) mentions the book "Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid and the "Internationales Horosckope Lexikon band 4 (Taeger collection)", which cites "Spiegel" Oct. 7, 1996 as reference for the day and time of the proclamation of the Islamic (Taliban) State: Sept. 28,1996 5:30am (1 am GMT), Kabul.

sidereal Moon = 22,48 Pisces
sidereal Asbolus = 22,56 Virgo

(no comment, see above)



Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:59:08 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Islam, TD10/TL66

>Afghanistan Saturn = 3,50 Gemini
>sidereal Moon WTC attack = 3,19 Gemini
>Bush natal sidereal Asbolus = 3,55 Gemini
>Bush natal sidereal CY118 = 4,00 Gemini

There is something interesting here:

sidereal TD10 of Islam = 3,11 Virgo
sidereal TL66 of Islam = 3,08 Virgo

This conjunction marked the birth of Islam. It produces in me the image of a strong vortex in the sky, an "opening" to another dimension, or to death and destruction, or to the afterlife. When triggered, it may be related to the idea of going to Paradise or becoming a martyr through deeds of destruction, self-immolation and sacrifice.

The square in the above positions represents a conflict, as if the Saturn-Asbolus / Afghanistan-George Bush connection, expressed in the WTC attack of September 11 (the Moon acting as focus), "triggers" compulsively Islam's "cyclone" or "spiralling tunnel" that brings death and desolation, connecting this world to the other, to the after life.

I made a search for the times when this conjunction had occurred before. These are the results (the positions are all in the sidereal zodiac):

First, the conjunctions that marked the birth of Islam:

3,35 Vir    27/10/ 620
3,33 Vir    13/ 1/ 621
3,25 Vir     8/ 9/ 621
3,19 Vir    11/ 3/ 622
3,14 Vir    27/ 7/ 622

The second set of conjunctions:

19,14 Sco    27/12/1049
19,04 Sco     4/ 5/1050
18,50 Sco    23/10/1050

The third set happened exactly over the Moon of Islam and *almost* exactly corresponds in time to the "Black Death" which decimated the population of Europe (1347-1351)

22,11 Leo    30/ 9/1350
22,06 Leo     1/ 2/1351
21,58 Leo    13/ 8/1351
21,48 Leo    10/ 4/1352
21,45 Leo    13/ 6/1352

The fourth conjunction is isolated (only one), and happens in our time:

23,57 Ari     4/ 4/2005



Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 20:59:00 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] more on Asbolus - Bush

> >Afghanistan Saturn = 3,50 Gemini
> >sidereal Moon WTC attack = 3,19 Gemini
> >Bush natal sidereal Asbolus = 3,55 Gemini
> >Bush natal sidereal CY118 = 4,00 Gemini
>sidereal TD10 of Islam = 3,11 Virgo
>sidereal TL66 of Islam = 3,08 Virgo

In the 20th century, there were only 2 conjunctions of Chiron and Asbolus. The first happened September 18, 1996, in exact conjunction with the Moon of George W. Bush:

sidereal Asbolus/Chiron = 22,04 Virgo
sidereal Moon Bush = 22,43 Virgo

The second conjunction happened this year on February 7 (2001), the time when the alleged negotiations between Bush officials and the Taliban in order to obtain the rights to run a pipeline through Afghanistan are said to have begun. These talks are reported in a heavily documented book written by Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie, under the title "Bin Laden: The Forbidden Truth" (I haven't seen the book, just repeating what is said about it in the reference I gave in my post on Afghanistan). The position of the conjunction was:

sidereal Asbolus/Moon = 1,33 Sagittarius.
tropical = 26,18 Sagittarius

Note how close this is to the Moon/Saturn/Asbolus connection above. Both Asbolus and Chiron were actually making opposition to the natal Asbolus of George Bush, the Saturn of Afghanistan, and the Moon of the September 11th attack by the end of February, and with the retrogradations, all through until the end of this year.

According to the investigation of the above authors, the resignation in July of FBI's Deputy Director John O'Neill came as a direct result of Bush having given orders <<to the FBI and other U.S. law enforcement groups to back off on terrorist-related investigations while the oil pipeline negotiations were underway>>.

The above may be true. It may be not. But astrologically, I think it sheds light on the meaning of Asbolus.

In Spanish, we have the saying: "aqui hay gato encerrado", which, I think, is similar to "there's something fishy here". This seems to be an aspect of Asbolus, "the fog", "the density", "the conspiracy".

Could someone provide any information about the possible meaning of the Asbolus/Chiron conjunction of 1996 falling exactly over the Moon of George Bush? Anyone with any Bush biographical information on that year?



Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:46:32 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Blackout

According to data posted here by John Delaney, the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center was 26.2.1993, 17:14:60 Universal Time:

CZ118 = 7,50 Virgo
Sun = 8,08 Pisces

while at the 9/11 attack (11.9.2001, 12:41:60 Universal Time -- data by John Delaney):

Sun = 18,51 Virgo
CZ118 = 17,50 Virgo
CY118 = 18,31 Virgo

which we commented can be imaginatively related to the 2 "twin" towers.

Thursday's blackout (20:09 U.T.) has the following:

Mercury = 19,00 Virgo
CZ118 = 19,41 Virgo
CY118 = 21,36 Virgo

See how Mercury/CZ118 are exactly over the Sun of 9/11.


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