Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:34:33 -0600
Subject: Re: Another Sun conjunct #10370
One point worth remarking about Brooke Shields, is that, even though her roles have always been around some erotic theme, her character is always very innocent, practically the very opposite of pornography. Even the controversy about the nude pictures when she was 10: they can be embarrassing, but they are innocent.
There is something about the symbolism and the implications of this, and of "virginity". She is, among the famous in Hollywood, one of the least "sexual", and this has been consistent throughout, at least as far as I have seen of her.
Then we also have the absence of the father, and the story --if I remember well-- of her alcoholic or exploitative mother. A teenager loosing virginity, a child prostitute, a 10 year old being photographed nude in the bath-tub... up to her statement of what "good in bed" means. They are all very consistent.
There is an issue of her being exploited as a child, of the moral and legal trespassing regarding her nude pictures. These 2 things are also consistent, similar 2 each other, and represent a fight she has probably fought all her life, first with the castrating mother, later with the industry's exploitation.
Her going away from it all to pursue her degree in French literature seems centaurean in the opposite way: more creative, by going away from Hollywood depravity, becoming "alien" to the usual Hollywood style.
And, it shows the comparatively "rounder" orbit of DW2, as well as its feminine nature. There's something "virginal" in it, untouched.
But, before all, I would say, all this more positive manifestation is due to Jupiter being less than 1 degree in conjunction with both the Sun and DW2! Ignoring this would be, in my opinion, a mistake.
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 07:52:05 -0600
Months ago (in early April) David Goodman (=Darryl) had proposed the names of Hylonome for DW2 and Cyllarus for 1995GO. I never liked Cyllarus for GO, but always felt as "right" Hylonome for DW2....
from material discussed earlier: <<Hylonome:
is the female centaur lover of Cyllarus who kills herself after his death;
her name means "browser of the woods.>>
The Uranus/Neptune realm is a good fit for this story, so similar to Tristan and Isolde.
The orbits of TF35 and OX3, although we know that they may change radically when new observations become available, are very similar to DW2, and are good candidates for Cyllarus.
I once mentioned that it may be a good idea to name the less eccentric centaurs after females and the most eccentric after males. With this principle, SN55 is a good fit to Eurythus or Eurythion, and DW2 is for Hylonome.
Another number that I always liked for DW2, was Teleboas, for other
reasons than Hylonome, mainly the sense of being "aloof" and of being a
hunter, uncivilized, which is also a fit for these centaurs that never leave
the realm of Uranus and Neptune, never "come close". This is why Hylonome
is a good fit with her suicide, since she is "leaving", going away in her
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 10:20:03 -0600
... [the story of Hylonome] is cruel and bloody. It represents a centaurean theme, the same as the adolescents Romeo and Juliet: the identity of love and death, the trespassing of social customs, being altogether "outside" of culture, death coming as a result of the clash with the prevalent morality. Also, "death" tends to disappear and becomes "redemption", and is related to the regaining of primal innocence and purity, a Neptunian theme, which can be accomplished only by leaving "this" world.
Suicide is very centaurean, because it is tabu, it is considered evil and condemned by every world religion, and nevertheless it makes us face today the same moral questions as abortion, euthanasia, eugenics, homosexuality and the issue of sexual abuse. These are all centaurean themes, because they are not "sanctioned", they are not bounded or institutionalized, and are related to the "Cain" aspect of us, wandering homeless through the earth's surface, daily confronting existential death.
So I see Hylonome not in terms of "lovely" but in terms of "purity", primal innocence, and the very violent and bloody breaking of physical limitations and moral barriers so that she can remain united with her primal core, i.e., her husband/lover. This required great courage and strength from her, it was a heroic action, warrior-like but in a more feminine way.
DW2 and Pholus are now travelling very close. They made conjunction twice in 1998: April 5 in 18,41 Libra, and August 24 in 18,00 Libra. Right now, it is in exact opposition to my Sun/Venus, and has been since last December, while Pholus was earlier doing the same with only a 2-month difference. It may be hard to differentiate their transits at least these past 2 years.
Later I may try to elaborate on what this transit has meant to me, apart from the acute "centauritis" of my brain.
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 13:16:58 -0600
I see the suicide of Hylonome connected not with suicidal people but with action in search of the "lost paradise", dramatizing the identity of "cruelty" and "innocence", "purity" connected with "blood", the red blood in the white snow... and the lack of or the striving for "redemption".
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 18:17:04 -0600
The image of blood in the snow is present in an amazing passage of Wolfram von Eschenbach's "Parzival": it made him remember his beloved Belakane, and he was so enraptured at the sight and concentrated in his beloved, that all the knights that came to fight him were defeated without him having to move...
(This image is also beautifully used in a scene at the tragic end of the 1988 film "Dangerous Liaisons", with Uma Thurman and John Malkovich).
Back in May in the Chiron forum, Zane brought to our attention the
very exact Sun/DW2 conjunctions on Passolini and of actress/model Brooke Shields.
They are like 2 extremes of the same thing, with Passolini lacking all the
"protection" Brooke had, which may be because Brooke has Jupiter with them
making a triple conjunction, and Passolini's Sun is applying very closely
to conjunction with the "gothic" 1994TA. These were my reflections
about Brooke Shields [see above]:
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 07:25:18 -0600
I checked this morning some of the dates in my teens that I used to call "my deaths". The first of them, in 1974, was the result of an ill-fated first-love, and led 2 days later to my buying van Norstrand's "Encyclopedia of Astrology", which marked the start of my life-long obsession with astrology. I had written the date and the time (27/6/74 2:10 p.m.) in the book when I got home from the bookstore; today I found this:
Sun = 5,47 Cancer
At birth, I have this:
M.C. = 18 Taurus
In the book below the date, there are a few lines with which I described my feelings back then (I was 17).
"I am dead. I must go in search of life...
"Purity" was the name my mind had given to my impossible and un-requited first love. 9 months later, one morning on waking-up, I had a vision of blue petals flowing like lava as if they were crystals, and then of a blue rose, from which I made a poem and wrote the date, so I remember well: it was April 17, 1975, around 6 a.m.:
Moon = 5,20 Cancer
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 10:30:54 -0600
When Wagner finished his "Tristan und Isolde" he stamped his signature and wrote the date and the time, eager to send the final work to Mathilde Wesendonk:
August 6, 1859, 4:30 p.m. We have a conjunction in the 8th house:
Sun = 13,36 Leo
It is also telling that in the chart of Bernardette of Lourdes...
"the closest aspects of the luminaries are:
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 12:02:39 -0600
Passolini is a good case of anti-purity, as was mentioned by Zane
when he also brought
Sun = 13,54 Pisces
"According to the Britannica, he used <<eroticism, violence, and depravity as vehicles for his political and religious speculations.>>. This quote, I think, reflects the creative striving of Sun/DW2." (from my post back then)
An interesting example is Milosevic:
Mars in 21,44 Aries
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:48:55 -0600
We all have probably heard of Archduke Rudolf, the heir of the Habsburgs, son of Francis-Joseph, who shot himself in a love-suicide pact with the 17 year-old baroness Maria Vetsera. They were found dead in the morning of January 30, 1889, in Mayerling.
Alan Leo's Notable Nativities has a chart for him, copied in the Sabian Symbols collection. It says "speculative time", but that's no problem to check the solar aspects. He was born August 21, 1858 (the time given is 22:15):
natal DW2-Hylonome = 9,47 Leo
and the transits at 6 a.m. GMT 30 January 1889:
tr. Sun = 10,11 Aquarius (precession=0,25)
tr. DW2-Hylonome = 25,13 Sagittarius
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 16:38:49 -0600
Adolf Hitler was born April 20, 1889, at 6:30 p.m. If I am not wrong, 26 Libra has been accepted as his Ascendant:
Ascendant = 26,41 Libra
When Eva Brown decided to accompany him at his bunker in Berlin in April 1945, against his explicit orders, he married her in gratitude April 30th, and after they had retired to their room at 3:30 p.m. that day, they drank their poison and he shot himself in the head. DW2-Hylonome was then in 26 Aries (The exact position, precession-corrected for the birth of Hitler, was 25,59 Aries).
Eva Brown was born, according to Louis Rodden in "Profiles of Women" (taken from the b.c.), February 6, 1912, at 12:30 a.m., in Munich. Corrected for precession for Hitler's birth, we have:
Hitler Hylonome = 26,44 Sagittarius
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:53:56 -0600
From Zane Stein : <<At a little before 1 am the morning
of November 21, 1999, 4 charter buses loaded with Penn State University students
crashed on a foggy stretch of highway... The location was just outside a
town called White Haven... Since I don't have the exact time, I'll just use
For this type of events, I always like to look at parans. The American Atlas gives EST and 41n04/75w47 for White Haven. At 0h55m, Pluto is 11.6 minutes past the I.C. But the following 2 parans are significant to me:
Moon = 9h16m.9 from the Eastern horizon
Asbolus = 9h36m.5 from the Western horizon
I feel that Asbolus is foggy and dense, while Hylonome may represent the students... Of TL66-Typhon I already spoke.
... maybe it means nothing, just a coincidence.
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:02:02 -0600
>Why do you think Hylonome represents the students?
--The Moon paran refers to the group of people, to a public context (public transportation), while the Asbolus/Hylonome paran adds a "color", an atmosphere. I was freely associating Hylonome in this context with youth and with beauty, i.e., young college students.
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 05:48:41 -0600
... he associated my use of the word "beauty" with "good looking".
This is what symbols are about: they suggest different things to different
people. To my mind, the "beauty" of Hylonome, as related to youth and to "purity"
(hence the image of the sacrificial victim), has to do with youth itself,
not with good looks. This "beautiful youth" is a symbol, and can be found
at any age. It is like being in love: it makes you young or an adolescent
at whatever age you are.
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:18:13 -0600
In my "Notes on TL66" in my site you will find a list of dates and people associated with massacres where the central role of TL66 is clearly seen. Thanks for the mention of this one. I looked it up in the Britannica and found: Sand Creek Massacre, also known as the Chivington Massacre.
date: Nov. 29, 1864
Col. John M. Chivingdon attacked by surprise with a force of 1200 US troops a surrendered camp of Cheyenne and a some Arapaho in southeastern Colorado. <<Chief Black Kettle had been negotiating for peace and had camped near Ft. Lyon with consent of the fort's commander, Maj. Sott Anthony. As the attack began, Black Kettle raised the U.S. flag as well as a white flag, but more than 400 Indians were massacred, including women and children.>>
There are more details in Reader's Digest "American Fascinating Indian Heritage" (1978, p.195-196). It says that the attacked happened <<on an early November morning>>. It says Col. Chivington was a former Methodist preacher, and before the sneak attack he told his men: "Kill and scalp all, big and little; nits make lice.". He and his volunteers <<crept down upon the Cheyenne encampment in the predawn hours and surrounded it.>>
I use the time of sunrise. Fort Lyon is @103W/38N:
Sun = 7,40 Sag
TL66 doesn't seem to be prominent here. We see a Moon/Sun/Jupiter-Mars/Asbolus opposition with Hylonome/Chiron at the axis of the grand-cross. My impression is that the Mars/Asbolus conjunction in opposition to the Sun and the Moon is the main signature here. Anyway the configuration is descriptive.
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 07:18:49 -0600
The siege and the attack-to-be can be seen in the Sun/Moon opposing Mars over the horizon. Asbolus/Mars I can relate to:
1- the scalping, the slaughter
Hylonome can mean the sacrifice or slaughter of people who were in peace, mostly unarmed, negotiating, trusting the honor of the white men, the rising of the white flag... It is the image of noble courage and of women and little children being slaughtered. We can see Hylonome in the following description:
<<Another chief, White Antelope, approached the troops to tell them that the Cheyennes were peaceful, but even before he could deliver this message, the volunteers opened fire on the village. Stunned by the slaughter he was now witnessing, White Antelope stood his ground, faced his tormentors, and sang his death song: "Nothing lives long except the earth and the mountains". Eventually, a bullet found its mark, and the chief crumpled dead on the ground.>> ["American Fascinating Indian Heritage" (cited before), p.196]
Chiron may be chief Black Kettle, who escaped. The the wound was opened. Both for the whites who later called it "a cowardly and cold-blooded slaughter" (the words of the army's judge advocate general), and for the Indians: <<the furious Indians of the Central Plains reacted to Sand Creek with bullets, arrows, war whoops, and bloody raids. Scores of settlers were killed, many more taken captive by revenge-seeking Cheyennes, and their Sioux and Arapaho allies.>> [id.]
Sand Creek's Moon was in 11,01 Sagittarius (at sunrise). As I write
this, the precession-corrected (1d53') Pluto is in 10,51 Sagittarius, and
the Moon (prec-corrected) is in 10,42 Virgo, while Sand Creek's Hylonome
was in 9,51 Virgo.
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:13:56 -0600
Here are my temptative, temporary, personal, subject-to-change or dismiss but strongly felt keywords for Hylonome:
- death song, war song, heroism, sacrifice
and for Chariklo:
- matriarchate, the Queen of spades, mature passions
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:57:31 -0600
The story of the Cuban child Elian Gonzalez I feel is related to Hylonome, although I don't see this centaur very prominent in the dates temporarily used (b.6 Dec.1993, found at sea 25 Nov.1999). The keywords I gave I think apply to him, to his mother, and to his father as well, waiting now to take his child home.
The political manipulation of this, the circus made by the Cuban exiles and Cuban-owned Miami press (which is broadcasted 24 hours a day to the rest of Latin America), and the campaign against his father, is another matter...
Of course real astrological data is needed, but it is certainly something that has been "in the atmosphere" all these days, as the full Moon was approaching, and will probably be solved once and for all (with the child returning to Cuba with his father) as the full-Moon recedes.
In www.astrodatabank.com (Louis Rodden's site) you can find an outline of the relevant dates and some background about his journey.
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:12:44 -0600
Since astronomers like to give names according to orbital metaphors or analogies, I suggest that the letter on naming DW2 includes:
- a suggestion that female names seem appropriate for centaurs with low eccentricity, which would keep consistency with the name given to CU26 (Chariklo).
- a mention of the Hylonome story, whose self-immolation seems fitting
for a centaur that is far away in distance and controlled by Neptune, the
"waters of the unconscious" akin to death and dissolution.
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:25:13 -0600
... Hylonome is your "ultimate" tears and crying, the "sad song" (crying is like a song of the soul, a mourning song). There is a beauty in Hylonome, but it is a beauty that is "fallen" from Paradise, that is living in disillusionment. The beauty is the love and unconditional solidarity you would have expected and needed from your mother and sister, since that is what you felt for them. You were happy because you had that, you had "eternal youth" secured by the tie you felt the three of you had or shared. But then there is no consolation, the child was betrayed, she felt she was not loved the way she thought, or the way she loved. Beauty then falls or melts. You cry endlessly like an ocean of tears. This is your immolation. Then you surrender, and this surrender is the "fallen beauty", the tragic beauty of Hylonome.
The redemption of Hylonome is like the beginning of a new world after the immolation of the Walkyre in the burial fire where she united with Siegfried in death. There is a cleansing, the cleansing brought by tears. You let go. Hylonome is very much like the beautiful "Viola" of Bulwer-Lytton's "Zanoni". She dies at the very end of the novel and leaves her baby son in the cradle at her side. People come and someone says: "Poor child!" Then come the last words of the book uttered by a priest among the people: "Don't worry. God protects the little orphans!"
Imagine the services held in memory of Wacco, in memory of the victims
of the Oklahoma bombing, both celebrated the same day, one day after the
full Moon over Hylonome last April 19th. Imagine also the epic memorial hymns
of Dimitri Shostakovich's music. There is a fire burning, a flame, a new hope,
a new beginning, an offering (all thought in terms of the transformation
of the present in order to have a better future --the redemption). Hylonome's
death was not a suicide, it was a surrender and an offering. It is beauty
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 11:19:52 -0600
... Positively, the act of Hylonome was heroic, a consecration of love and the union she had. My general feeling about Hylonome, however, is about a feminine energy that is twisted or distorted...
I belive my Hylonome (exactly on my south node and conjunct my MC) is very strong in my life, particularly my relationship with women, where it produces powerful and very painful projections. But on the other hand, this same Hylonome is also present in my dealing with the "soul" of my clients, especially as related to the love-death part of their deeper emotional experiences, which is my specialty.
... I can feel Chariklo in the words "personal isolation", as in the black clothes of a widow. The strongest image that comes to my mind is an unhappy marriage, but in which the 2 partners keep themselves devoted to each other. The centaurean difference, probably, is the "inner fire", the unrest, the hidden passion that finds an outlet in extra-marital affairs, or in other passionate involvements with social causes. I see passion in Chariklo, but I don't feel, so far till now, the painful abandon of Hylonome.
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 19:35:48 -0600
... For example, Hylonome can give herself completely to a lost cause, to a relationship that is doomed. Perhaps "abandonment" is better than "abandon", and "doomed" is better than "crazy". But at war, for example, this is required. For example: a Jew kills himself or herself before getting caught by the gestapo, the inhabitants of Masada..., or I will kill my girl or kill myself before seeing her in someone else's arms, or a surrounded Indian warrior can jump into his death instead of surrendering, etc., etc. Hylonome is sad, not depressed. By killing herself, she triumphed over death.