Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 20:05:47 -0600
Subject: Re: Re: dissolution
... Actor Ryan O'Neal is a very interesting example. He was born 20 April 1941 at 9:34 PST.
Sun = 0,14 Taurus
It is interesting in this respect that his emblematic film was "Love Story", where one sees the Nessus/Pluto angle quite well, and I guess the conjunction shows in all his other roles. I would love to know what you and all the others think about him, and would like to know what happened to him...
Edgar Rice Burroughs was born September 1, 1875 in Chicago. The Zodiacal Zephyr database gives a time of 9 PM LMT from Streinbecher quoting his birth certificate.
The first 'Tarzan' story appeared in 1912 (age 37), following by other 25 books based on it. He had had "numerous unsuccessful jobs" before this, but Tarzan and his stories about life on Mars were an enormous success, translated during his lifetime to 56 languages.
This is what I found:
Sun = 9,12 Virgo
So astrologically he definitely was a Centaur, with Nessus in the axis of the T-Cross. My encyclopedia says that he witnessed the Pearl Harbor attack (age 66) and, as a correspondent for 'Los Angeles Times', "was the oldest correspondent covering the South Pacific during WWII". I think this has something to do with the following conjunction:
Mars = 0,31 Capricorn
The Nessus connection doesn't seem surprising, and the opposition to SG35 is a revelation that could tell us something about SG35. I wonder if someone knows some detail about his personality?
The American writer Stephen Crane was born November 1, 1871. Assuming Noon GMT, we have:
Sun = 8,39 Scorpio
He is best known for his first 2 novels (quotes are from the Britannica):
"Maggie: A Girl of the Streets" (1893) written when he was 23, "a sympathetic study of an innocent and abused slum girls's descent into prostitution and her eventual suicide", and
"The Red Badge of Courage" (1895) "a subtle impressionistic study of a young soldier trying to find reality amid the conflict of fierce warfare. The book's hero, Henry Fleming, survives his own fear, cowardice, and vainglory and goes on to discover courage, humility, and perhaps wisdom..."
He died of tuberculosis that was compounded by recurrent malarial fever in June 5, 1900, at the early age of 28.
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:55:25 -0600
Nessus, and probably all centaurs, are a contradiction. Not only because the centaur symbol, half one thing and half another, is a contradiction, but because their very small size contradicts the strength of their astrological effect.
Stephen Crane is considered "a great stylist and a master of the contradictory effect". He achieves this through his "ironic explorations of human nature and destiny", by means of "tensions between irony and pity, illusion and reality, or the double mood of hope contradicted by despair" (Britannica). His short story "The Open Boat" is "one of the world's great short stories".
The Circle Book of Charts (#318) provides a birth-time of 5:30 a.m. for Stephen Crane, taken from his father's journal as it appears in "Stephen Crane" by R.W. Stallman (1968). So let's see again how centaurean he was:
Sun = 8,35 Scorpio
CU26 = 8,08 Leo
His Moon is in 23,57 Gemini, conjunct its node in 22,25 Gemini and in applying opposition to Mars in 25,27 Sagittarius, which define well his working as a war correspondent and as an author novels and short stories about war. But this Moon doesn't have very close centaur contacts, so I will ignore it for now...
The presence of Nessus can be seen in his first novel "Maggie" (1893, age 22), which he wrote from his own experience in the Bowery slums of New York where he lived the bohemian life of a poor student. This novel was so shocking that he published it at his own expense and under a pseudonym. It was written with an uncompromising realism, inaugurating what in the next generation became the sociological novel in American literature.
It is easy to see in the description of the novel ("innocent", "abused", "slum girl", "descent", "prostitution", "suicide") the familiar Nessus territory. The fact that in the narration he is "sympathetic" towards Maggie, reflects very well the conjunction aspect with the Sun. In fact, the Britannica says that he lived his life so unconventionally and his sympathy for the downtrodden was so consistent that "he aroused malicious gossip and false charges of drug addiction and satanism".
The dynamic of this Sun/Nessus conjunction, is also well expressed in the description of his second novel, "The Red Badge of Courage", described as "a psychological portrait of fear" ("a young soldier", "reality amid the conflict", "fierce warfare", "survives his own fear", "cowardice", "vainglory", "discover courage", "humility", "wisdom"), but in this case the Sun, the young hero, appears stronger.
Nessus is also to be seen in his having died at such an early age (30 yrs), usually related to his privations and exposure during his years in the N.Y. slums and later as a war correspondent, in Cuba and Greece, united with his deliberate disregard for his health. The day he died (June 5, 1900, in Germany), The Sun (13,56 Gemini) and Nessus(14,16 Pisces) were in exact square, certifying the Nessonian qualities of his life and his death of combined tuberculosis and malaria.
The data of Anton Szandor LaVey has just been posted on another list: April 11 1930 at 3:30 a.m. CST in Chicago, from the birth certificate. It was posted by Louis Rodden, who mentions "B.C. in hand from Edwin Steinbrecher".
He is a good Nessus case:
Nessus = 20,11 Ari
Venus = 6,30 Tau
Neptune = 1,03 Vir r
Anton Szandor LaVey, <<High Priest of the First Church of Satan
in San Francisco, some time lion tamer, calliope player, as well as occultist
and Satanist. Born April 11, 1930 in Chicago, Illinois, of Alsatian-French-German-Romanian-Russian
ancestry. From the age of seven onwards, he studied books on occultism
and the supernatural, including 'Dracula', 'Frankenstein' and pulp horror
magazines. At high school he detested his schoolmates and lived in a world
of literary black magic....
His name was Antonio Salieri, b. August 18, 1750 in Legnano. Apparently Mozart believed that he had *tried* to poisoned him once, but this is only a legend. The movie "Amadeus" further distorted this legend and what it shows is pure speculation. He died May 7, 1825 in Vienna.
Salieri's Node = 29,22 Sag
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:14:53 -0600
<<1746 - Pestalozzi Johann, m, 12.01.1746g, 16:00, Zürich, -0h34m12s (o), 17kre5>>
Si esta hora es la correcta, entonces encontramos los siguiente:
Luna = 27,39 Virgo
Esto le da un gran enfasis a la Luna. Alguno conoce por casualidad una referencia acerca de la hora de nacimiento que no sea otro astrologo? (referencia=astrologo=sin referencia)
El fodo primario es Luna/Neso, despues el eje con Higeia, y despues Folo. Al final, Folo es el foco de la Cruz-T.
Neso/Folo = los pobres, los huerfanos, los marginados, los abandonados, los debiles, los deseperanzados
Higeia = educacion
Pestalozzi fue un reformador radical en su epoca (Sol=22,25 Capricornio, 1999RG33=22,06 Cancer). RG33 (#15504) es un damocloide moviendose entre la franja de asteroides y Urano.
"regresar a la naturaleza" (Neso-Folo-Higeia).
de la Britannica:
<<Durante 30 anos, Pestalozzi vivio en el aislamiento de su finca en Neuhof, escribiendo profusamente sobre educacion, politica y economia, indicando maneras para mejorar la suerte de los pobres. Sus propuestas fueron todas ignoradas por sus paisanos, y se vue volviendo cada mas deseperanzado.>>
Despues de la Revolucion Francesa, cuando ya tenia 50 anos, fue llamado por la Republica Helvetica para que organizara la Educacion Superior, <<pero prefirio comenzar desde el principio. Recogio cantidades de huerfanos de la guerra abandonados y los cuido casi siempre el solo, intentando crear una atmosfera familiar que restaurara sus cualidades morales. Estos pocos meses agotadores en Stans (1799) fueron, de acuerdo con el relato del propio Pestalozzi, los dias mas felices de su vida.>>
Despues ya comezo a tener el reconocimiento de sus contemporaneos, aunque nunca pudo cumplir su anhelo de establecer una institucion educativa permanente para los pobres. Al final se retiro con los alumnos que le quedaban a Neuhof, donde escribio su "Canto del Cisne" (1826)
Murio el 17 de febrero de 1827, el mismo ano que Beethoven y William Blake.
dice la Britannica:
<<Pestalozzi fue una impresionante personalidad, altamente estimada por sus contemporaneos. Su concepto de la educacion abarcaba la politica, la economia, y la filosofia, y la influencia de su "metodo" fue inmensa.>>
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:46:19 -0600
A las 16h, Neptuno en Cancer esta exactamente en el grado del Ascendente, esta "solitario por hemisferio", y ademas es la "manigueta" del mapa (es una "flecha" o "ballesta"). La oposicion Sol/Neptuno es el eje de todo el mapa, y el enfasis de Cancer (y de Neptuno), junto a la Luna en la 4a muy cerca de I.C., le dan un gran enfasis a los valores lunares.
Este enfasis lunar-maternal sobresale en su biografia: crear hogares de educacion para los ninos pobres, que el sostenia por si solo, convertir su residencia privada en una escuela para ninos, la preocupacion por el aspecto emocional y la atencion y el respeto a las etapas de desarrollo de la ninez.
Pestalozzi me parece un ejemplo extraordinario del servicio comunitario y del pensamiento social abstracto caracteristicos de Neptuno, que convirtio la preocupacion maternal en interes universal y humanitario. El enfasis de Neptuno explica muy bien su preocupacion por solucionar el problema de la pobreza y su entrega de una vida entera a la educacion.
En la conjuncion Mercurio/Urano, tal como lo mencionas, podriamos ver su habilidad para desarrollar ideas muy originales en su tiempo acerca de la educacion, pero desde mi perspectiva, todo el mapa (y su vida) se apoyan sobre Neptuno.
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:08:58 -0600
It is not a certain mythological fact that Nessus "raped" Deianira, and he probably didn't, even though I am told that in some versions it is mentioned that Deianira had at her disposal Nessus blood and "sperm". In Sophocles' "The Trachiniae" Deianira herself tells her story, i.e., her own version of the experience she had, which goes like this:
"I will tell you, friends, the way by which I
hope to find deliverance and relief. I had a gift, given to me long ago
by a monster of olden time, aid stored in an urn of bronze; a gift which,
while yet a girl, I took up from the shaggy-breasted Nessus,- from his
life-blood, as he lay dying; Nessus, who used to carry men in his arms
across the deep waters of the Evenus, using no oar to waft them, nor sail
So, according to this, it is a fact that Nessus did not "raped" Deianira, in the same way that, for example, it is said that Pluto did indeed "raped" Proserpina. What Nessus did was touch her with "crazy" or wanton hands.
Does Deianira say that he raped him? No! Does the mythographer say that Nessus wanted revenge and lied and deceived Deianira? No!
On the contrary, I see the dying Nessus' gift to Deianira as genuine gift for her benefit and protection. Herakles was eventually killed with his own poison, not Nessus', and as a consequence of his brutality and unfaithfulness.
Legal or moral questions aside, seeing it from the point of view of Nessus (the old strong and solitary slave), I see what carrying Deianira (the young and seductive adolescent) on her back must have meant. This was also well understood by the poet Ruben Dario in 1898 when he put the following words in the mouth of Nessus:
<<The Enigma is the fatal face of Deianira!
... which, at the same time, is precisely what caused his death.
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:21:13 -0600
To me, the main value of this quote from Sophocles, a mythographer writing several centuries before Ovid, is that it shows clearly, in my opinion, that we cannot look at myths simplistically. Myths have history, they evolve in response to changing cultural conditions, and it is unwise to simply repeat what one author says about the myth. We happilly have access to a lot of material in the Web an can make some research ourselves.
Quoting the poetic interpretation of Ruben Dario, who was an ardent student of mythology himself, shows, in my view, that if we are to use myths as source for astrological readings, then we should do it creatively in terms of what it says to us, instead of simply repeating what the Greeks or tradition says.
I believe that we cannot or should not use the myth exclusively or preponderantly to derive astrological characteristics. This is a precedent inherited from main-belt and fast asteroid work in the past, but the history of centaurs research I feel has always given precedence to orbital symbolism; witness the possibility of knowing the characteristics before the object has been named, as is shown in the naming process of some of them.
I have not used the myths in my work, and I will always reject the prevalent views that see Nessus superficially as "the bad guy" just because the myth says so. I have rejected this from the very beginning. There is no denying that Nessus often is very nasty and can manifest as rape, but it is unacceptable to me to stop there without seeing what is behind these manifestations, the dynamics, and ignoring altogether the more "human" and fragile characteristics of Nessus. I agree with Jonathan, as we discussed Nessus here years ago, that the main theme is that of the "Beauty and the Beast". The very pathological or extreme cases are always good illustrations, but, in my opinion, we cannot take them as models.
Concerning the psycho-dynamics of centaurs, I found the following the other day (sorry, lost the source) about Ruben Dario, which I think can help us understand this:
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:19:15 -0600
I am really interested in knowing what exactly Ovid says.
There is an interesting essay on Book IX of Ovid's Metamorphoses written by Kristen Hertwig and Nathan Brown (http://www.auburn.edu/~downejm/2207/ov9.html) that summarizes tha passage in the following way:
<<Hercules and his new bride made their way to his native citys walls, and along their way encountered Nessus, a centaur. Nessus lost his life for love of Deianira when he tried to escape with her while Hercules was swimming across the river. Hercules shot Nessus with an arrow that contained Hydras poison. Nessus did not think he should die unavenged so he gave the blood soaked shirt to Deianira.>>
which has nothing to do with what we are being told regarding an alleged Deianira's rape.
Another site says about this Ovid passage that Nessus <<offers violence>> to Dejanira, which is consistent with Sophocles account (remember Ovid was a Roman, while Sophocles wrote in Greece centuries before and must have bee used by Ovid as one of its sources) of the "wanton hands".
Here is the Latin rendering of the complete passage:
"Huic tamen ablati doluit iactura decoris, cetera sospes habet. capitis quoque fronde saligna aut superinposita celatur harundine damnum. at te, Nesse ferox, eiusdem virginis ardor perdiderat volucri traiectum terga sagitta. namque nova repetens patrios cum coniuge muros venerat Eueni rapidas Iove natus ad undas. uberior solito, nimbis hiemalibus auctus, verticibusque frequens erat atque inpervius amnis. intrepidum pro se, curam de coniuge agentem Nessus adit, membrisque valens scitusque vadorum, 'officio' que 'meo ripa sistetur in illa haec,' ait 'Alcide. tu viribus utere nando!' pallentemque metu, fluviumque ipsumque timentem tradidit Aonius pavidam Calydonida Nesso. mox, ut erat, pharetraque gravis spolioque leonis-- nam clavam et curvos trans ripam miserat arcus-- 'quandoquidem coepi, superentur flumina' dixit, nec dubitat nec, qua sit clementissimus amnis, quaerit, et obsequio deferri spernit aquarum. iamque tenens ripam, missos cum tolleret arcus, coniugis agnovit vocem Nessoque paranti fallere depositum 'quo te fiducia' clamat 'vana pedum, violente, rapit? tibi, Nesse biformis, dicimus. exaudi, nec res intercipe nostras. si te nulla mei reverentia movit, at orbes concubitus vetitos poterant inhibere paterni. haud tamen effugies, quamvis ope fidis equina; vulnere, non pedibus te consequar.' ultima dicta re probat, et missa fugientia terga sagitta traicit. exstabat ferrum de pectore aduncum. quod simul evulsum est, sanguis per utrumque foramen emicuit mixtus Lernaei tabe veneni. excipit hunc Nessus 'ne' que enim 'moriemur inulti' secum ait, et calido velamina tincta cruore dat munus raptae velut inritamen amoris."
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:06:31 -0600
In a message I wrote February 1st of this year, I mentioned the account of Nessus by Apollodorus which was references to me by Stefania, a friend from the Italian "Astro_Club" yahoogroups forum, which is interested in asteroids and centaurs. I found the references today in the Web and want to share them here, even though I am aware that for many of you this may be well known and repetitive.
In a pair of messages a few days ago I questioned the alleged malevolence of Nessus and the assumptions of the actual rape of Deianira. I believe it is clear from the text of Ovid that such an assumption cannot be made, and had presented, in a post before that, the quote from Sophocles' "Trachiniae" where Deianira tells her own story, where it is clear that she was not raped.
I also presented the original Latin version of Ovid, but I do not read Latin. The complete text of the "Metamorphoses" found in the Web is a translation by John Dryden et als which is probably not too literal, so it is interesting always to see other translations. What follows is taken in its entirety from http://www.theoi.com/Okeanos/Nessos.htm
The account of Apollodorus is as follows:
"With Deianeira he [Herakles] made his way to the Euenos river, where Nessos the Kentauros had set up business ferrying travellers for a fee, maintaining that he had received the franchise from the gods because of his moral rectitude. Herakles crossed the river on his own, but when Nessos demanded payment even so, he let him conduct Deianeira across. En route he tried to rape her. Herakles heard her scream, and shot Nessos in the heart with an arrow when he had landed. As Nessos was dying, he called Deianeira to him and told her that if she wanted a love-potion to use on Herakles, she should mix the semen which he had spilled on the ground with the blood that was flowing from the wound made by the arrowhead. She did this, and kept the potion with her." -Apollodorus 2.151
From Ovid, we know that Nessus "fell in love" with Deianira, either attempting to rape her or taking her away on his back. But Ovid does not say anything about Deianira being actually raped. Here, Apollodorus says the same thing, i.e., that Nessus attempted to rape her. The two accounts are consistent, and so is Deianira's description of Nessus touching her with "wanton hands" in Sophocles. Sophocles makes it clear that Deianira was not raped, and all three --together with the poet Ruben Dario-- agree that Nessus "went mad" out of his amorous desires (Oh the smell of her sex!) and the terrified Deianira screamed Hercules for help.
Apollodorus gives us some details not found in the other accounts, for example, that Heracles waited until Nessus had landed in order to kill him. Had he shot his arrow while they were at the middle of the river, Deianira would have drowned! Another detail present in Apollodorus is the semen that Nessus spilled on the ground, so we can imagine how "sexually crazy" or excited he was.
These images are very similar to the one of King Kong in love kidnapping the young beauty, minus the attempted rape or semen (that could not be part of the movie due to censorship!). And the spilled semen is the clear image of an un-requited sexual desire. It says explicitly that Nessus had ejaculated, but the woman was repelled by him and did not penetrate her. This exactly the same as the "Pelleas and Melisande" story, Melisande's rejection of his husband Golaud, who went mad of jealosy and killed his brother (see my analysis in http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/essays/winged2.html)
Now let's see for completeness the following translation of the complete passage of Ovid, as it appears in the above site:
"But savage Nessus lost his life for love of that
same lady [Deianeira], when an arrow flew to pierce his side. When Jove's
son, Hercules, was making for his native city's walls with his new bride,
he reached the rushing waters of braod Euenus, high beyond its wont. The
river, swollen by the winter's rains and full of whirlpools, poured impassable.
And as he stood there, fearless for himself but anxious for his wife, Nessus
approached, mighty in muscle and knowing the fords well. 'With my help
she'll stand safe on the far side', he volunteered: 'You, use your strength
We can see that the texts do not contradict each other. They all agree in an attemped rape or something very similar. It is clear that Deianira was not raped or "ravished". What we don't know is if Deianira was telling the truth about her not consenting... we simply assume that she was.
On the other hand, Apollodorus wrote that Nessus franchise as a "ferryman" was given to him by the Gods as recompense for his rectitude. Why do we have to assume that he was lying?
So, in conclusion, I would like to repeat what I wrote before:
Legal or moral questions aside, seeing it from the point of view of Nessus (the old strong and solitary "beast"), I see what carrying Deianira (the young and seductive adolescent) on her back must have meant.