Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 20:55:13 -0600
Subject: More centaur aspects
Moon = 9,33 Sag / 1994TA = 11,56 Sag (rising)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 20:35:48 -0600
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:05:37 -0600
Conrad (Potter) Aiken
The introduction in the Britannica is worth quoting:
<<poet, short-story writer, novelist, and critic whose works, influenced by early psychoanalytic theory, are concerned largely with man's need for awareness, particularly self-awareness. In his view awareness must be pursued even if it leads to a confrontation with terror, as Aiken himself was confronted by the trauma in his childhood of finding the bodies of his parents after his father had killed his mother and commited suicide. He later wrote of this in his autobiography "Ushant" (1952)>>
"Silent Snow, Secret Snow" is from the book "Among the Lost People" (1934)
He has the Sun in 13 Leo, less than a degree from 1994TA in 12,48 Leo.
Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 07:25:54 -0600
I would like to add 1 thing to the list of exact Sun conjunct 94TA: (from a previous post): the day of the Guyana masacre at Jonestown, November 18, 1978, the Sun was (noon GMT) in 25,23 Scorpio, 1994TA was in 25,15 Scorpio.
Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 08:19:16 -0600
Beijing, The "Battle" of Tian An Men Square. There is a chart for this in "American Astrology Magazine" October 1989, p.19. It says "4 AM CCT", and is made for 20h UT of the previous day. The Moon is in 13 Gemini, which makes it even more poignant:
Moon = 13,16 Gemini
1994TA = 12,21 Pisces
This places the Sun/Moon at the focus of the Nessus/1995GO opposition to 1994TA. A real vortex. I will remember forever the tv images of a student bullfighting a tank with his jacket, which I always thought a perfect description of Pluto in sociological terms, but maybe it is a better description of Centaurs.
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 10:30:29 -0600
Herman Melville's chart is in Louis Rodden's ABC, cast for 1 Aug. 1819, 11:30 p.m. LMT in New York
Sun = 8,59 Leo
Reading his biographical sketch gave me pain... which I guess would be expected with this positions.
This is a quote from the Britannica about "Moby Dick" (publ. Oct. 1851): <<...In the perverted grandeur of Captain Ahab and in the beauties and terrors of the voyage of the "Pequod", Melville dramatized his deeper concerns: the equivocal defeats and triumphs of the human spirit and its fusion of creative and murderous urges. In his private afflictions, Melville had found universal metaphors. >>
I think that the Captain Ahab/Moby Dick relationship is seen most clearly in this configuration, in particular the opposition Sun/QM107. It is wonderful and powerful, surrounded by "the beauty and terror" of 94TA and 95GO.
Later on, regarding his book "Pierre" (publ. 1852): <<...revealing the sombre mythology of his private life framed in terms of a story of an artist alienated from his society. In it can be found the humiliated responses to poverty that his youth supplied him plentifully and the hypocisy he found beneath his father's claims to purity and faithfulness. His mother he had idolized; yet he found the spirituality of her love betrayed by sexual love. The novel, a slightly veiled allegory of Melville's own dark imaginings, was rooted in these relations.>>
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:13:04 -0600
I checked Pasolini's date (5 March 1922, Bologna) but would like to know the birth time. Zane's statement about the Sun being 2' from DW2, means a time near 6 a.m. GMT.
Sun = 13,54 Pisces
Moon = 25,20 Taurus
Anyway, his planets show very strong centaurs all around, with the Moon conjunct CU26 square SG35 and Uranus conjunct Sun/DW2 conjunct Venus, with 94TA in-between. Sun/DW2 in 13 Pisces is also indissoluble with Neptune in 13 Leo. Saturn opposes a triple conjunction of QM107-Nessus-Chiron, with Pluto making a T-cross.
Since Zane provided the address where a detailed biography of him exists, many things can be gathered from it. For example: he was legally accused of corrupting minors in 1949, when his progressed Sun was in conjunction with Nessus.
Very descriptive is the impression caused by his 1955 novel "Ragazzi di vita" : full of "morbid taste", of "the dirty, the abject, the unseemly, the torbid.". This maw well be 1994TA, in-between Sun/DW2 and Venus.
According to the Britannica, he used <<eroticism, violence, and depravity as vehicles for his political and religious speculations.>>. This quote, I think, reflects the creative striving of Sun/DW2.
When his corpse was found in the beach in 1975, Pluto had travelled to the other "arm" of the T-cross.
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 22:48:11 -0600
Joseph McCarthy was born Nov.14, 1908, and died May 2, 1957...
ate: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:28:36 -0600
<<Sinead O'Connor... 8 Dec 1966>>
...I was interested in her, since I can feel the centaurs strong, so I checked the date, which is as you say. I find:
DW2 = 13,55 Gem Rx.
This is a strong T-cross, the Sun separating from the opposition with DW2 and going to the square with 1994TA. I can feel this applying square with 1994TA...
Centaurs are trespassers and are aggressive, and she qualifies from many points of view, beginning with her being abused in childhood and ending in her being ordained as a Catholic priest, after a promise of celibacy. I just saw in the news that she is pregnant with her third child.
She is a good example of the power of the centaurs and their role in astrology, since none of the main planets is strongly aspecting the Sun.
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 14:14:47 -0600
Anne Frank was born in Frankfurt am Main June 12, 1929. In the
Internet one finds: 7:30 a.m. MET (-1h). This gives:
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:56:25 -0600
At 02:56 08/13/1999 , Jonathan Dunn wrote: <<Buford Furrow Jr, who shot up the Jewish Community Center, wounding 5, - and also killed a postal worker - was apparently born in Nisqually WA on 25 Nov 1961.>>
Pinochet's birthday. at 12h GMT:
Sun = 2,59 Sagittarius
Normally, without centaurs, we would see Sun-Mars in 2-8 Sag opposing Uranus in 0 Gem, applying to the Pluto square (10 Vir).
Centaur-wise, shooting children I would associate with 1994TA in this case. Chiron-DW2-TL66 forms a sort of unity, like the axis of a rotating wheel, providing the "saviour" justifications. I feel Chiron/DW2 associated with the Jewish issue here, and TL66 with his killing the Asiatic mail man.
This would be like horary analysis, not natal. But such an incident is like a living nightmare where his natal planets personify themselves during those minutes that marked the line, the centaurean line that he trespassed.
Mars and Pluto provided the hatred.
... Hunting and killing are centaur territory, so are racial issues. Perhaps in this case the woundedness (augmented by Mars/Pluto) prevailed over the healing, and the "bridge" of Chiron is emphasized because there is no bridge.
Nessus dragon's dark wings are here behind the children, behind 1994TA (Nessus 28,52 Tau - 94TA 29,48 Leo). By shooting the children he was shooting himself and his aggressor. The children overshadowed Nessus. He had no class.
So he is not like Pinochet. Pinochet is a killer psychopath, but only in his shadow; he has class, he is an aristocrat in the same line as the other "political vultures" that don't get their hands dirty by sending others to make the tortures and killings for them. This aristocracy is the Pholus signature, the Pholusian wings.
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 06:56:08 -0600
I use what Robert gave (17 Aug 99, 3:02 a.m.)
The first aspect the 2 luminaries make are both squares to centaurs:
Moon = 0,42 Scorpio
The Moon approaching Neptune here could be the humanitarian concern and aid. OX3 would be the spear, the pain, the wounded people under the crumbled buildings, the urgency.
Sun = 23,40 Leo
Here the Sun approaches 2 centaurs in square, which I can imagine as giving a more "central" meaning to the event, putting it at the heart of Turkey, like a blow, a tragedy, a wreckage. A very fitting image, centaur-wise, is "a crack" in the heart of Turkey. I'm not seeing is as what caused the quake, but as the realization of the tragedy in the aftermath.
Saturn = 17,02 Taurus
Here 94TA is very close to the square-point of the eclipse. I feel 94TA as a "gothic" centaur (as probably many of them are)... can be gruesome or grotesque. Since it is aspecting the eclipse degree, this I could imagine as more directly related to the quake itself, rather than the human (Moon) and State (Sun) mobilization afterwards.
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 17:10:18 -0600
Many of us remember the gruesome ending of Ceausescu and his wife, shot to death by the firing squad after a quick trial by his own people that had overthrown him during a revolution in 1989.
The Romanian army was ordered to open fire and kill the antigovernment demonstrators, but the soldiers defected, and instead persecuted him and his wife until they were hurriedly sentenced to death on charges of mass murder among other crimes.
By the way they were treated and sentenced, it was apparent that he was feared and hated by his people. At the time of the revolution in 1989, according to the Britannica, Romania was near starvation and Ceausescu had instituted an extensive personality's cult.
I thought he would be a good candidate for 1994TA. He was born January 26, 1918, and was killed Dec. 25, 1989. Robert v. Heeren's VIP list provides a time: 20h05m. This is 19h GMT:
Neptune = 5,43 Leo Rx.
It is interesting to note the Sun when he was killed (assumed Noon GMT):
tr SG35 = 2,21 Capricorn
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:55:02 -0600
Lon Chaney was born Alonso Chaney April 1, 1883, in Colorado Springs. Sabian Symbols #189 is his chart made for 7:19 a.m. (there is no source, but there is a chance that it is M.E.Jones himself, who was only 5 years younger, in his time as astrologer in Hollywood). We have:
Sun = 11,31 Aries
Moon = 20,37 Capricorn
Saturn = 23,30 Taurus
He was known as the "Man of a Thousand Faces", and is remembered for his characterizations of macabre characters in the time of silent movies. He earned reputation as the finest character actor in films during his time.
His parents were deaf-mute, and he learned pantomime as a boy. His first important supporting role was in "Hell Morgan's Girl" (1917), followed 2 years later by "The Miracle Man" (1919), which made him a star. His progressed Sun was conjunct Pholus 1918-1919!
He was the legless ruler of the underworld in "Penalty" (1920), Quasimodo in "The Hunchback of N.D. (1923), followed by "The Phantom of the Opera" in 1925. In 1927 he played a dual role as police inspector and as vampire in "London after Midnight", followed by several equally acclaimed non-horror roles 1927-1929.
He died in Los Angeles August 26, 1930, under an exact conjunction of the Sun and Neptune (he has Neptune conjunct the Ascendant at birth).
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:47:13 -0600
I just checked Prince Charles chart (14-Nov-1948 21:14 GMT), and found this elevated in his 10th house:
Moon = 0,26 Taurus
I don't know you, but this feels like Hylonome to me.
Diana died at 2:00 GMT of August 31, 1997. Let's see the transits over Prince Charle's chart (corrected for precession):
tr. Moon = 16,13 Leo
--And in the chart of Diana:
tr. Sun = 7,12 Virgo (prec.corr.)
--It seems that there are no official records of Diana's birth time, and I have at least 2 p.m. and 7 p.m. (July 1, 1961, in Sandringham, Norfolk). At 7 p.m., she would have the Moon at 24,35 Aquarius, and at 2 p.m. in 21,31 Aquarius:
Moon = 21,31 - 24,25 Aquarius
... a T-Cross with Venus at the axis of Moon/Uranus. Sounds good for a description of her love-life, but it is the presence of 1994TA (Pylenor) that gives a sharper focus to her life-story:
1994TA = 23,38 Leo (conjunct Uranus, opposition Moon, square Venus...)
--I will copy here some of what I had written about Pylenor in the crp list:
<<... how the Twin Peaks (check my notes in my web site) murder investigation begins, when the detective finds something under the victim's nail... it has to do with dirt, with fear, with death... I feel something very crude about this centaur, as when the skin is peeled and "flesh" is exposed, as a doctor at surgery, an infection, a tumor, an "invader under the skin"... Here is the "crudeness", the "flesh"... There is something "low" about 1994TA, something that doesn't shine... it is fracture where the bone is exposed, also a tumor, a cold object, a corpse. 94TA is like a can of worms, a dental caries, a whore house, a slaughter house, a very old man (feels like the old wickedness of Saturn in ancient texts). "Rape" is very centaurean, and with respect to TA, I feel it is related not to the violence but to the crudeness of it, the "defoliation", it is "sex without the intimacy", "reverse" nakedness, i.e., when nakedness looses its moral boundary and meaning, like in relation to medicine. In the context of rape, too, it can be seen as an image of the "bad seed" left by it. <<... the nerves and the flesh are exposed, things are "inside out". What is rotten or spoiled comes to the surface and "throbs", the skin was "peeled". All of this is very gruesome and crude, I know. Perhaps the redeeming quality of TA can be seen in the image and the meaning of surgery: it is an intervention, and invasion, a "peeling"...>>
<<I was looking at some lists of centaur
names, trying to find some other possibility for 1994TA besides Elatus.
The story of Elatus finds a parallel in its orbit in the area of Chiron
and in its smaller size and smaller importance... but I don't feel anything
particular regarding the astrological characteristics of TA and the story,
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:40:33 -0600
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:03:34 -0600
Just in a hurry, without thinking too much...
Timothy Leary is a good candidate for centaur research, considering that he became a celebrity by breaking moral tabus and barriers, breaking and defying the law, and becoming a symbol of a new type of consciousness that goes beyond conventional reality, to say the least...
zodiac.com mentions his birth certificate and Noel Tyl. He was born October 22, 1920, in Springfield, MA., at 10:45 a.m. EDT. We have:
Ascendant = 9,44 Sagittarius
Sun = 28,54 Libra
Moon = 27,48 Aquarius
and from another perspective, Uranus in 1,55 Piscis makes 1994TA be in the midpoint between Uranus and the Moon, which seems to me the "blasting" of the Moon and Venus "mama" principle of domesticity and protection.
He is definitely a good subject to understand the workings of 1994TA.
Without the centaurs, his chart looks more "normal", it would be harder to pinpoint his being a radical outcast. The centaurs seem to give a clear focus to it.
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:19:15 -0600
I think it is universally accepted that WWI was started by the assassination in Sarajevo of Francis Ferdinand and his wife Sophia, a 19 year-old Bosnian Serb named Gavrilo Princip. Perhaps it is reasonable then to accept this event as the "radix" of WWI? It happened June 28, 1914, at 11:15 a.m., according to the Britannica (I use +1h from GMT)
Asc = 28,20 Virgo
I don't know if this time is very exact. It is reasonable to assume 1 or 2 degrees of margin on each side, no more. Either way, 1994TA-Pylenor would be one of the most focal planets. Perhaps it is a good description of the sacrifice and butchering of millions in the trenches and by the poisoned gas, deriving from the 2 shots from the small pistol of Gavrilo Princip.
This time was just 7.8m after Pylenor had culminated in the lower meridian, and 11.9 minutes after Pluto culminated above the horizon. In the 10th, one finds
M.C. = 28,01 Gemini
Sun = 5,51 Cancer
Juno here seems a very good description of Francis Ferdinand's morganatic wife, who was assassinated with him. The presence of Pluto talks of the issues of world power that went berserk. The mobilizations of the armies I think is described by the exact paran between the Moon and Phollus, which rise and anti-culminate with only about 6s of difference.
We also find the following interesting centaur aspect:
Node 7,38 Pisces/Virgo
The importance of QM107 is increased when we see how it is involved with the Moon/Pholus paran:
Moon 2h02.5m after rising
The mobilization of an army is described by Phollus... but I don't know what QM107 is, and I don't have a "feeling" for it yet.
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:26:03 -0600
... His Nessus is only 1' from Hylonome...
But I think the following offers the strongest (I mean tightest-orbed) description:
Moon = 17,02 Pisces
It has a bad smell...
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:53:24 -0600
I get an exact Chiron/MC conjunction in Aquarius, opposite the Venus/Pylenor exact conjunction... couldn't this be the signature?
Also interesting is his exact Sun/Juno conjunction... very feminine.
The body can very well be also the Moon... especially since he is so "peculiarly" lunar, so maybe the Venus/Pylenor is the key: Venus=beauty, Pylenor=dirty (his rejection of being black), Moon=child (also his sisters).
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:56:09 -0600
Nessus/Hylonome are practically inseparable here... Sexuality, yes. Pedophilia, not necessarily. I do think that it shows a destructive and secretive outlet of sexuality, an aggression and manhood that are repressed or distorted. I also feel that it is suicidal and reclusive... and perhaps in the line that you are thinking: I feel it shows a secret and destructive abuse that left very deep and destructive wounds that castrated him. He is very much like a "castrato", and this I would associate with this Mars/Nessus/Hylonome in the 12th.
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:07:28 -0600
Searching in the Web, I found 2 circumstances in which Pylenor is mentioned:
The first is with reference to Pholus. Rich's Pegopedia says: <<Pholus met his demise as a result of one of Hercules' Hydra's-blood poison-tipped arrows. In an attempt to aid his fellow centaurs, Pholus attempted to pull a poisoned arrow from the felled centaur, Pylenor, whereupon he accidentally dropped the arrow piercing his own foot.>>. There is no mention of the source of this story.
The second is from Pausanias "Description of Greece" 5.5.10:
<<I am convinced that the peculiar odor of the Anigrus is due to the earth through which the water springs up, just as those rivers beyond Ionia, the exhalation from which is deadly to man, owe their peculiarity to the same cause. Some Greeks say that Chiron, others that Pylenor, another Centaur, when shot by Heracles fled wounded to this river and washed his hurt in it, and that it was the hydra's poison which gave the Anigrus its nasty smell. Others again attribute the quality of the river to Melampus the son of Amythaon, who threw into it the means he used to purify the daughters of Proetus.>>.
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 14:20:53 -0600
Here are some tentative keywords for Pylenor, derived from the material I have accumulated. I will be glad to dismiss them in face of more evidence...
bleeding - poison - surgery - infection - tumor - cavityfor the background on how I derived them, all the material is found in the following collected posts in my site: "Notes on Pylenor", "Twin Peaks", "Eric Satie", "Anton Bruckner", and "Nicholas and Aleksandra".
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 15:44:14 -0600
Some thoughts come to mind:
- Reading this after a while, without thinking in any centaur, I get a picture very similar to the "old and very bad" Saturn of classical astrology. It is the same sensation I got when I first wrote of Pylenor here: <<feels like the old wickedness of Saturn in ancient texts>>.
- The words seem to describe mostly negative things. It is always easier to see the negative aspects with slow-moving planets, probably because they tend to be more dramatic. But the positive side is already part of them: being a nurse, one who takes care of the old, being a surgeon, Mother Theresa, etc. There is something of "The English Patient" here.
- Pylenor/1994TA is modest in eccentricity when compared with the "giants", "the winged ones" (Asbolus-Nessus-Pholus). Pylenor is not a homeless nomad or wanderer like them, he stays in the same place, even confined to it.
- Another association I get from Pylenor is that character "Menjnour", from Bulwer-Lytton's "Zanoni". He had left all feelings and passions behind --unlike Zanoni-- and was wise but "sterile", not very humane, like someone who was deprived of feelings and lived without "fruits".
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 19:35:24 -0600
I had put this aside, because it was a little isolated, but now that Zane mentions Mars/Pylenor, here it goes:
I use as source the Encyclopedia Britannica:
The "small revolution" in tzarist Russia in 1905 was marked by strikes, peasant uprisings, and mutinies in the armed forces. Its violent phase, came as response to what became known as <<Krovavoye Voskresenye>> ("Bloody Sunday"?), a massacre of peaceful demonstrators in Saint Petesburg, January 9, [January 22 new style], 1905. A dramatization of it appears in the film "Zhivago".
The demonstration was a mass march toward the square before the Winter Palace. The organizer was the priest Gregory Gapon [quote:] <<having told the authorities of his plan, he led the workers --who were peacefully carrying religious icons, pictures of Nicholas, and petitions citing their grievances and desired reforms>>. The chief of the security police, ordered to open <<fire upon the demonstrators. More than 100 were killed and several hundred more were wounded.>>.
St. Petesburg's foundation is May 27, 1703:
This transit --if a newer orbit of 1994TA doesn't invalidate this 1703 position-- may be a good description of the situation.
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 13:36:31 -0600
I would associate Pylenor with an aborted fetus, or a baby born with deformities, perhaps not so much the baby itself but the experience this means for the parents. Many of the keywords I gave earlier come to mind:
bleeding, surgery, tumor, cavity, destitute, deprivation, shame, immaculate, gruesome, corpse, flesh, exposed wound, defoliation, slaughter...
they all sound like an abortion or miscarriage, or like a "Quasimodo feeling" if applied more symbolically or generally.
I also feel that Pylenor is associated with nurses, particularly male nurses.
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 07:41:31 -0600
Transiting Pylenor has now been conjunct my Mercury and my M.C. The first contact with Mercury was in Aug.'98, when it was stat. rx. exactly over it (or a little short of it if allowing for precession). I remember very well that month. In terms of Mercury, I read a small book that fascinated me, named "Cachaza", the anti-psychiatric account of the dweller of a madhouse, narrated as if from the inside of his brain. I felt it was a work of genius, and in spite of the nightmarish and gruesome quality of the story, one could feel in the end an immense compassion and humanity. I remember feeling very clearly that there was not much difference between Cachaza (the in-dweller) and me in many respects. The book showed in a masterful way how the world is transformed inside the mind and inside a person's memory, in addition to showing the extreme sordidity of life in an insane asylum, and how psychotic "normal" society is.
The second contact with my Mercury was in May'99. It was at this time that the astrological awareness of Pylenor characteristics began, triggered by a mention of Mark Holmes of writer Conrad Aiken, and the realization that he had the Sun conjunct 1994TA. I will quote here what mark wrote first April 30, 1999, since it is very similar to the "Cachaza" theme above:
I then checked the encyclopedia for the date and found the Sun/94TA conjunction. As far as I know this was the first clue to appear about the meaning of 1994TA.
... there are 3 more keywords I would like to add to my list for Pylenor: sordid, misanthrope, social misfit.
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 07:53:59 -0600
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:14:04 -0600
I use 5 a.m. + 4h30m = 9h30m GMT, and limit myself to conjunctions.
Jupiter = 14,35 Cancer
This conjunction may be related to Chavez' extraordinary communication ability. He has an acute and alert mind, and is very clever with words, being able to speak eloquently for hours. The Cancer/Moon/Jupiter/12th house may be related to his image as a protector of the poor and his popularity among the lower classes of Venezuela. Jupiter here is a "protecting" influence also for him, made evident in the way he came out of the coup (or whatever it was) with a large popular backing. I think it shows how he manages to exploit the recent events for his own political benefit, through his abilities as an orator, not unlike the also extraordinary oratorical abilities of Fidel Castro (both Leos, by the way).
Sun = 4,46 Leo
The conjunction is rising in the first house (Asc around 20 Cancer), so maybe we can say: he is an "incarnation" of Pylenor. The Pylenor signature is seen, for example, in his physical appearance: unlike most of the traditional South American ruling class which is of European white-skinned looks, Chavez is dark-skinned and of Indian type (like Toledo right now in Peru). He looks socially rugged and unrefined, with a "gorilla-like" military appearance, "incarnating" very well the confrontation with the upper and middle classes that has characterized him. He speaks a lot about humbleness in a very un-humble, leonine way, but he is indeed of humble origin, and as I said he considers himself a protector of the poor.
These are Pylenorian characteristics: humbleness, poverty, humility, social inadequacy, "ugliness", social deprivation, the antithesis of aristocracy. Chavez incarnates the strong social differences in Venezuelan society, the marginality and poverty of a majority disguised or "masked" by the ruling middle and upper class enjoying the bonanza and the power of petro-dollars.
But of course Pylenor has also some very negative features, such as cold-blooded murder, torture, cynicism... A "sick" Pylenor can be gruesome, dark, even "gothic".
Chavez, like Pylenor, can become a blister that exposes something rotten in Venezuelan society. Regardless of whether he is "clean" or not, his confrontational, rough and awkward style exposes himself and his people to strong national and international reactions.
He could be a blister, but he could also be the man who puts the finger in the already-existing blister. Probably he is both.
Many things remain unanswered about las week's coup, such as, for example, the role of the U.S. ambassador in the events, the premature and personalistic --later regretted-- "applause" of the Bush administration, the snipers firing at the police during the demonstrations, the armed Chavistas firing at the unarmed multitude, and the exact coincidence of the traditionally anti-Cuban "Group of Rio" (read the presidents of all OAS members less Cuba) meeting in San José, Costa Rica, which turned out to be decisive in the restoration of Chavez to the presidency after agreeing not to recognize the new self-designated (or self-sweared, as Chavez called it) fleeting new government.
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 03:19:51 -0600
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:09:32 -0600
>Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:14:55 -0600
Chavez is a politician, and a military leader, so I assume he is a manipulator. But considering his Sun/Pylenor conjunction, I also assume that being manipulative is not a good reference to his character.
... What I am saying is that manipulation is not a Pylenor characteristic. In this case, with Sun in Leo rising made critical by a strong Saturn/Pholus/Pylenor T-cross, then I can see this "projection of his personality" that you mention more in the line of Pholus and Saturn forcefully bringing his Sun to the front. The opposition and square is what gives dynamics, and in this case, probably the Sun and Pholus is what can best be related to the most controversial, double-faced, and "showman" aspect of his activity as a politician, including his ties with Cuba and the Colombian guerrilla. Pholus is related to covert and secret operations as well as to corruption, which may well come from foreign interests fighting Chavez for his political independence (such as the Bush administration, which has been clear about the disgust --read Pylenor-- they feel for Chavez). Of course, it may be Chavez himself, or both.
I explored the "shadow" aspect of Pholus in my "Political predators", and Chavez is, astrologically at least, a clear example. But Pylenor is different. My feeling is that here it relates to Chavez' identification with the humble and the poor, in addition to his socially unrefined style and appearance, what you aptly called "lack of grace", or the disgust he may produce in the upper social strata of his country. He is of a different social class, he is not a friend of Washington, he is a friend of Castro, he doesn't belong to the traditional ruling class of Venzuela, and is probably considered "inferior".
I am sure he is conscious of his lack of social grace. He is not a conciliator, has a very rough metallic voice and a dark appearance. He is putting his finger in things that a lot of people want to leave untouched in Venezuelan society...
His identification can be "dirty" or "unclean", i.e., dishonest. For example, during the coup, one of the accusations thrown at him was "your hands are dirty with the blood of Venezuelan people"... a Pylenorian image.
... Putting things simplistically, speaking very generally, the Sun rising in Leo, "incarnating" Pylenor, challenged by Saturn, "projected" by Pholus... this makes a very strong Sun, so even though he is over-compensating, he is doing it for totally different reasons, more related to a very fundamental urge for self expression, for being himself. Sun/Mars/Chiron in Virgo is being overly aggressive and personal, while that Leo Sun is more fiery and self-sufficient, more "impersonal" or spiritual. Chavez wants to incarnate his people, H.P. Long wanted to win the race and beat the competition.
... An exact solar conjunction is a powerful focus, but so is an exact lunar conjunction in a different way, or something else maybe, depending on how one finds the critical focus in each case. The "incarnation" image referred to the Sun only.
... Maybe the question here --or the observation-- would be if what one finds in a chart with a certain configuration can be found in another with a different configuration, i.e., that there are many astrological ways of saying the same thing... or is it just a question of our limitation in the use of descriptive language?