Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:59:08 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Islam, TD10/TL66

>Afghanistan Saturn = 3,50 Gemini
>sidereal Moon WTC attack = 3,19 Gemini
>Bush natal sidereal Asbolus = 3,55 Gemini
>Bush natal sidereal CY118 = 4,00 Gemini

There is something interesting here:

      sidereal TD10 of Islam = 3,11 Virgo
      sidereal TL66 of Islam = 3,08 Virgo

This conjunction marked the birth of Islam. It produces in me the image of a strong vortex in the sky, an "opening" to another dimension, or to death and destruction, or to the afterlife. When triggered, it may be related to the idea of going to Paradise or becoming a martyr through deeds of destruction, self-immolation and sacrifice.

The square in the above positions represents a conflict, as if the Saturn-Asbolus / Afghanistan-George Bush connection, expressed in the WTC attack of September 11 (the Moon acting as focus), "triggers" compulsively Islam's "cyclone" or "spiralling tunnel" that brings death and desolation, connecting this world to the other, to the after life.

I made a search for the times when this conjunction had occurred before. These are the results (the positions are all in the sidereal zodiac):

First, the conjunctions that marked the birth of Islam:

      3,35 Vir    27/10/ 620
      3,33 Vir    13/ 1/ 621
      3,25 Vir     8/ 9/ 621
      3,19 Vir    11/ 3/ 622
      3,14 Vir    27/ 7/ 622

The second set of conjunctions:

      19,14 Sco    27/12/1049
      19,04 Sco     4/ 5/1050
      18,50 Sco    23/10/1050

The third set happened exactly over the Moon of Islam and *almost* exactly corresponds in time to the "Black Death" which decimated the population of Europe (1347-1351)

      22,11 Leo    30/ 9/1350
      22,06 Leo     1/ 2/1351
      21,58 Leo    13/ 8/1351
      21,48 Leo    10/ 4/1352
      21,45 Leo    13/ 6/1352

The fourth conjunction is isolated (only one), and happens in our time:

      23,57 Ari     4/ 4/2005



Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 10:39:35 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] TD10

Here is some of what I have written before of TD10. I will try later to comment individually on Sivia Plath, Saint Saens, Enrico Fermi, and Edmund Husserl. Comments and data on "The War of the Worlds" are found in my notes on TL66 and I reproduce them here:

<<On October 30, 1938, was the famous "War of the Worlds" radio broadcast by Orson Wells, an event that made history because it created such a collective hysteria in the U.S. The chart for this event can be seen, for example, in "American Astrology", p.18, October 1989, taken from "The Chronicle of the Twentieth Century". It is made for 8:00 P.M. EST, 40n45/73w57 October 30 1938. This gives:

      Sun = 6,57 Scorpio
      1999TD10 = 6,55 Scorpio
      1996TL66 = 6,43 Aquarius

... a fascinating configuration, which illuminates the meaning of TD10, and is seen being "entrenched" by the point of the Jupiter/TL66 conjunction at the beginning of that year.>>

Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:20:42 -0600
Subject: [centaurresearchproject] TD10
I'm not sure what it means, but it gives me images compatible wit the subject-matter of the "War of the Worlds" 1938 broadcast. Remember, that night when the broadcast started:
Sun = 6,57 Scorpio
TD10 = 6,55 Scorpio
... the American writer/poet Silvia Plath:
Sun = 4,10 Scorpio
TD10 = 4,43 Scorpio
... composer Camille Saint-Saens :
Sun = 15,16 Libra
TD10 = 15,41 Libra
Venus = 16,22 Libra
... death of Emiliano Zapata :
Sun = 19,22 Aries
lunar true Apogee = 20,54
Libra TD10 = 21,36 Libra
... nuclear age architect Enrico Fermi:
Moon = 27,01 Aries
TD10 = 26,08 Libra
... philosopher Edmund Husserl :
Sun = 18,07 Aries (noon UT)
TD10 = 18,53 Libra

Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:54:46 -0600
[centaurresearchproject] 1999TD10 is now # 30716
This body is one of a kind, half scattered disk object, half centaur. It comes very close to Saturn at perihelion (12 AU, perihelion passage Oct-Nov 1999), and goes to "the beyond" (190 AU) at aphelion. Its probable size is about 80 Km. I like the name "Ixion " (Robert von Heeren's original proposal for TL66) for this one... my opinion, is an accurate description of its orbit: it penetrates or "impregnates" the world of the centaurs from the primordial world, while its very perpendicular orbit (eccentricity 0.88) resembles a crucifIXION, also described in its being bound to a wheel... the "primordial cloud" is the scattered disk which is the origin of centaurs, as was suggested by Robert von Heeren.

Wed, 21 Nov 2001 18:00:53 -0600
[Centaurs] TD10, CY118, sdo's
TD10 is very unique. It belongs to the scattered disk (period about 1000 years), but at perihelion it penetrates "the world" and gets very close to Saturn, without "touching" it. I like to think of it as Ixion, the father of the centaurs, tied forever to a turning wheel. It already has a number (29981), so it is at this moment the only numbered centaur (or half-centaur) that has not received a name. It reached perihelion October 31, 1999.
I have very few examples of it. Silvia Plath had it in exact conjunction with the Sun...
So, if someone is familiar with her writings or poems, perhaps a clue about its meaning could be obtained. Collectively, it was in exact conjunction with the Sun, also in Scorpio, during the famous "War of the Worlds" broadcast in 1938...
An invasion by aliens is a very good description of its orbit: coming from outside it penetrates our world and clashes with it. This is not unlike what has invaded the US...


Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 09:33:12 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Chechens, methodology, TD10

About 50 Chechenian rebels took the Moscow theater at 9:05 pm, Oct. 23 2002, and blah, blah...


I will assume that difference between Moscow (55n45/37e35) and Greenwich was 4 hours. A first look shows a close opposition between the Sun and TD10:

       Sun = 5,20 Libra (sidereal)
       TD10 = 4,50 Aries

A solar opposition gives a planet its greatest strength, it makes it "shine" in the sky. Now recall my answer to John Delaney about the possible meaning of TD10 crossing the US Ascendant: << Just a hunch that comes from the orbital symbolism: the US territory "penetrated" by terrorists, the paranoia, the fear. The so-called "War against terrorism", i.e., more terror to combat the terror.>>

Which I think describes what happened... superficially.

The orbital gesture of TD10 is very intrusive. It orbitally belongs to the "scattered disk", but what makes it unique is that it penetrates the sphere of the centaurs until it is "stopped" or controlled by Saturn. Like all the very long-range scattered disk objects (period =963 years, perihelion Oct/Nov 1999), it is an alien (or demonic or angelic) force that "brings a message" from the other side, but contrary to the other sdo's that always "go away" taking a part of our lives with them (like an Angel of Death), TD10 stays until it becomes "structural", it becomes "cemented" (Saturn), it is "the enemy inside".

This is why I said that "invasion by terrorists" is superficial, a symptom. What TD10 puts in evidence is the internal predisposition towards death, death and violent invasion ingrained, part of our constitution.

The Russian victims of terrorism were in the same situation that the American victims of Sep. 11th: they belong to a nation that practices violence and terror against other nations, even though they are not aware of that or do not want to confront that truth; but they suffer the consequences...

If we apply this to an individual person who has TD10 very strong natally, we can think of childhood experiences of violent invasion, such as a serious operation at a very early age, or abusive parents, or parents who abused each other so that the child "instituted" the terror in his emotional make-up, even though he is not aware or understands what is happening, he is "innocent" regarding what the parents did to him, to themselves, or to another child, or what society, or physicians at the hospital, did to them.



Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 11:41:13 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] Chechens, methodology, TD10

Orbit-crossing and intrusion of the type exemplified by TD10 is by definition violent or traumatic, this is what orbital symbolism is about. This is not to say that they are "only negative". This to me is a totally different thing. The result or after-effect of the trauma can be very positive.

"The miracle of life" is the result of this. We all start our lives with one such very traumatic and violent event: birth. And consider the violent fight that each individual sperm cell must give in order to break the egg's membrane and achieve fertilization...

Even the most angelic vision, if manifested in an intrusive way, is traumatic or violent, such as, for example, St. Paul's vision of the resurrected Christ on the road to Damascus. The visitation of Mary by Gabriel was received by her with the "Magnificat", but I wonder what this same experience would mean to a woman today...

Jung characterized these "visitations" as invasions from the collective unconscious. They are by nature disruptive and chaotic, they always challenge strongly the integrity of the individual "I" or self. They are anomalous, premature  encounters with what I mentioned when dealing with Zanoni as "The Dweller of the Threshold".

What I was writing regarding TD10 was not with only the USA or Russia in mind. I had a couple of concrete individual examples (such as Silvia Plath, mentioned in the past) and in recent months I have had some very strong, very intimate personal experiences with it (crossed my Sun/Venus in April and was exactly conjunct my Sun in my 2002 solar return, also mentioned in the past).

Without considering astrological data for the moment, the conquest and colonization of the Americas comes to mind. For some people, this was a disaster, a generalized catastrophe, but not everything was negative, and the resulting cross-fertilization of races and cultures produced a "new race", specially in Latin America where the inter-breeding was more extended.

But from what I see in international politics today where terror is met with more terror, I must say that it is manifesting very negatively in the cases mentioned. I'll wait and see what good comes of it. Even the onset of an evil like the AIDS epidemic had some very good after effects.



Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 19:50:53 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Re: Chechens, methodology, TD10 - Roy


I attempted a development or explanation of what I have found, that you quoted and which consists of 2 parts. The first is the orbital symbolism:

<<The orbital gesture of TD10 is very intrusive... >> (see previous post)

This question of the "enemy inside" has the alien nature of TD10 in mind. I have dealt with this same concept from another perspective since the beginning, in my first essay on Nessus (see my "Redemption of Nessus") , and showed that it is not something necessarily negative. I certainly don't see it that way. If someone is confused about this please read " The Redemption of Nessus" in

Everybody has to live with an enemy inside, the shadow, the guardian of the threshold, the double. I referred to it when examining Zanoni. My idea regarding Sun/TD10 aspects rests on the "alien" metaphor and the insights provided by the doctrine of the Guardian of the Threshold, or maybe better, "the double". I have not developed the idea in any of my posts yet, because I feel it is not the time for me. Apparently people do not like to hear about the strength and control that an entity like the double can have in a person's life, and this may be a reason why the teachings dealing with it were kept secret until recently.

As for the 2nd part of my development...

<<If we apply this to an individual person who has TD10 very strong natally...>> (see previous post)

Violent invasion and abusive parents in childhood is very common, often, it is denied or kept unconscious, so ingrained it is. Every normal life is made of many examples of abusive behavior. Very few are those who are willing to deal with their shadows and their darkness, their angel/demon duality (Sun/TD10). Those who dare will be examples of positive ways of dealing with alien intruders like TD10.

NOTE: With this I am not saying that TD10 can *only* be seen this way. It simply is the way I see it, and it is a way that is not "negative" or "bad" necessarily. "Good" or "bad" is what we make of it.



Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:58:17 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] Saint-Saens tropical positions


... The intuition arises from the orbital symbolism, there is no need to try to make it fit.

My pre-conceived notions of TD10 originate in my limited experience with it (of which some examples were given), which does fit the paradigm of orbital domain (I also have had some very strong personal experiences associated with it, but I won't talk about them here). The orbital gesture is still not clear to me, although I have intuitions, such as, for example, the role of TD10's very low orbital inclination, or the "alien" clue to which I have referred already.

These are clues that guide the imagination when trying to interpret the evidence, but this is very different from "trying to fit" the evidence into "a scheme" of orbital symbolism. Orbital symbolism is not a fixed or preconceived "scheme", it is something dynamic that moves, that suggests and evokes, that provoques images and gestures or "postures" in the mind. I am not schematic when dealing with orbital symbolism. It is something alive and intuitive.




Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:35:07 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] TD10: Maria Goretti

I found Maria Goretti using Robert von Heeren's "VIP"search facility. She is a saint and martyr of the Church, murdered at the age of 12 by her neighbor Alessandro Serenelli, 18 years old, when she refused to submit sexually to him. She fought back to avoid being raped and was stabbed 14 times, dying the next day at the hospital.

She was born October 16, 1890, in Corinaldo, at 13h 15m according the "VIP" database (no sources):

       TO66 = 22,28 Libra
       Sun = 23,06 Libra (12h25m GMT)
       TD10 = 24,04 Libra

... not a "pure" TD10 case (orb=0,58'), but the conjunction is strong enough and applying. Also:

       Venus = 7,17 Sagittarius
       SG35 (Okyrhoe) = 7,45 Sagittarius
       Pluto = 7,38 Gemini
       Neptune = 6,38 Gemini

The attack happened near Ferriere, July 5, 1902 at "15.30" [ ]

       Sun = 12,26 Cancer (precession 0,10')
       Moon = 13,20 Cancer
       TL66 = 12,37 Capricorn

She was beatified by the Roman Catholic Church on April 27, 1947, and declared Saint in St. Peter's Square by Pope Pius XII, on June 24, 1950, <<becoming the youngest officially recognized Roman Catholic saint ever.>> [ ref. above ]



Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:22:52 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] TD10: Miguel Angel Asturias

Miguel Angel Asturias won the Nobel Prize for literature in 1967 and the Lenin Peace Prize in 1966. He was born at noon (no source, sorry) of 19 October 1899 in Guatemala City, and seems to represents a more "pure" TD10 incarnation:

      Sun = 26,08 Libra
      TD10 = 25,54 Libra (orb=0,14')

The Britannica describes him like this:

<<His writings, which combine the mysticism of the Mayas with an epic impulse toward social protest, are seen as summing up the social and moral aspirations of his people>>

This "epic impulse" means that the Sun here is greatly strengthened by its fight with TD10 which tries to overshadow him. The Sun becomes "heroic". He is considered the father of Latin American "Magic Realism".

I read "Hombres de Maiz" (Men of Maize, 1949), considered his masterpiece, many years ago (in 1975), and it was one of the most fascinating reading experiences of my life. Using a language that seems to imitate the rainforest landscape, the author takes you inside the "nagual" chamanism where men and animals (and plants, and rocks) become one another, and the magical past is experienced in a mythical present, like in a dream. At the end of the book, you have understood what this magical/mythical and "sacred" experience of the Mayas is about, and you are far away from the conventional rationality of today's world. I didn't want to wake up... I wanted to keep dreaming, not unlike the experience of reading Gabriel Garcia Marquez "One Hundred Yedars of Solitude" (another Nobel Prize Winner), which also takes you into the mythical world of the tropical rainforest.

One author describes his literary language as <<a language which seems to have assumed the bright splendour of the magical quetzal's feathers and the glimmering of phosphorescent insects.>> [see reference below]

I always felt, to this day, that it is the work of a genius. See for example the following description:

<<Its motifs are from the mythology of that tropical land where man must struggle simultaneously against a mysteriously beautiful but hostile nature and against unbearable social distortions, oppression, and tyranny. Such an accumulation of nightmares and totemic phantasms may overwhelm our sensibilities, but we cannot help being fascinated by a poetry so bizarre and terrifying.>>
let's imagine that the phrase <<where man must struggle against >> refers to the Sun fighting to retain its strength and integrity against the overwhelming forces of TD10. Then TD10 would be:

1-) <<mysteriously beautiful but hostile nature>>
2-) <<unbearable social distortions, oppression, and tyranny>>
3-) <<an accumulation of nightmares and totemic phantasms>>
4-) <<bizarre and terrifying>>

Asturias was a vehemently anti-tyranny, anti-dictatorships, and anti-American protest writer, and this is probably the reason of his present neglect. Continuing with "Men of Maize":

<<There is a familiar dark magic in the death chosen by the Maya sorcerers for Colonel Chalo Godoy, who conspired with corrupt farmers to destroy the guerrilla warrior Gaspar Ilom:

"Hands of darkness brandishing daggers will force him to suicide. But it will be only his shadow, a skin of shadow among the yuccas. The bullet will burst in his temples, he will fall to the ground, but other dark hands will lift his body, they will mount him on his horse, and will begin to shrink him horse and all until he is the size of sugar candy."
<<And there are also resonances of the Popol Vuh in Maria Tecún's aimless wanderings after she is bitten by a spider, and in Don Nicho the postman's journey to Xibalbá to meet his coyote nahual. The lesson he learns is the same taught by the authors of Popol Vuh:
"Those who thus confront their nahual, outside themselves, are invincible in war and in love ... they own all the riches they desire,  they make the snakes respect them, do not succumb to small pox, and if they die it is said their bones are made of firestone."

His works are vast and complex, full of very rich imagery, and should offer a good opportunity to study the nature of Sun/TD10 in conjunction.


Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:17:06 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] 2 more exact Sun/TD10 conjunctions

In case anyone is interested in studying these cases:

      David Ben Gurion, Oct 16 1886
      12:24 p.m., Plonsk
      Sun = 23,01 Libra
      TD10 = 23,19 Libra


      Eugene O'Neill, Oct 16 1888
      2:40 p.m., New York
      Sun = 23,53 Libra
      TD10 = 23,42 Libra

Birth times have no source.



Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 06:30:29 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] TD10: Eugene O'Neill

I haven't read or seen any of O'Neil's plays either. But here are some quotations from the Internet that help establish the nature of TD10. (Because of the orb and the orbital symbolism, I think that in his case TD10 has precedence over Pandora, UG5, and QM107).

Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:46:33 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] TD10: Eugene O'Neill
The orb is one criteria of precedence:
Sun/UG5 = 0,51'
Sun/QM107 = 0,29'
Sun/Pandora = about 0,17'
Sun/TD10 = 0,11'
Orbital symbolism is another. Both UG5 and QM107 have very round orbits in centaur standards (not to mention Pandora, which belongs to another domain. Pandora could describe a characteristic in terms of theatrical standards). An sdo-centaur like TD10, on the other hand, corresponds to the real-life pathos and tragedy of his life and work, it has a dynamism that reflects his life and the very strong sense of tragedy.
With this I am not saying that the other objects don't play a role. I am saying that TD10's orbital symbolism corresponds better with what one finds of O'Neill's life, and this in turn corresponds to the precedence established by the orbs in this case.

In the "Notes" I write down how I see dynamically the expression of the Sun/TD10 conjunction. Needless to say, these notes are an expression of how I personally approach astrological symbolism and interpretation, and others are entitled to have different or opposing views.

This is from (the Britannica article). Other references in the notes are indicated inside the text.

<<Eugene, who was born in a hotel, spent his early childhood in hotel rooms, on trains, and backstage. Although he later deplored the nightmare insecurity of his early years and blamed his father for the difficult, rough-and-tumble life the family led--a life that resulted in his mother's drug addiction--Eugene had the theatre in his blood.>>

<<... The next six years very nearly ended his life. He shipped to sea, lived a derelict's existence on the waterfronts of Buenos Aires, Liverpool, and New York City, submerged himself in alcohol, and attempted suicide. Recovering briefly at the age of 24, he held a job for a few months as a reporter and contributor to the poetry column of the New London Telegraph but soon came down with tuberculosis. Confined to the Gaylord Farm Sanitarium in Wallingford, Conn., for six months (1912-13), he confronted himself soberly and nakedly for the first time and seized the chance for what he later called his "rebirth.">>

Note: TD10 first completely overshadows his Sun, "drowns" it. But the Sun, being the Sun, reacts, and his life, from then on, will be the continual fight with "the tragedy" of TD10, expressed in his literary masterworks. He "answers" the dilemas and paradoxes of the conjunction, the harmonious blending of the TD10 and Sun being his artistic creation, which can be seen as the spiritual completion of what could never be completed in his personal life. This is the dynamics of his Sun/TD10 conjunction.

<<O'Neill's first efforts were awkward melodramas, but they were about people and subjects--prostitutes, derelicts, lonely sailors, God's injustice to man--that had, up to that time, been in the province of serious novels and were not considered fit subjects for presentation on the American stage.>>

Note: He was a definite innovator, showing the creative strength of his Sun "stirred" by TD10. We can see TD10 in his subject matter (i.e., the subject-matter of his Sun): prostitutes, derelicts, lonely sailors, God's injustice...

Up to a point, the mark of his approaching Moon/Pholus conjunction is in this type of characters, but the preoccupation with religious matters and with the ultimate meaning of life belong to the Sun/TD10.

<<... O'Neill famously maintained that contrary to most modern plays whose interest lay with the relations between people, his interests were, "in the relations between man and God."... Plays generally do happen between the characters, of course, and so do O'Neill's, but his statement gives us a hint towards a first principle in his artistic agenda, so to speak. In an letter ... he wrote something which may clarify what he meant: "… the roots of the sickness of today as I feel it ­ the death of the old God and the failure of Science and Materialism to give any satisfying new One for the surviving primitive religious instinct to find a meaning for life in, and to comfort its fears with. It seems to me anyone trying to do big work nowadays must have this big subject behind all the little subjects of his plays or novels, or he is simply scribbling around the surface of things and has no more real status than a parlor entertainer." []

This quotes reflects essentially solar preoccupations, and are therefore indications of the action of TD10.


<<Until his 'Beyond the Horizon' was produced, in 1920, Broadway theatrical fare, apart from musicals and an occasional European import of quality, had consisted largely of contrived melodrama and farce. O'Neill saw the theatre as a valid forum for the presentation of serious ideas. Imbued with the tragic sense of life, he aimed for a contemporary drama that had its roots in the most powerful of ancient Greek tragedies--a drama that could rise to the emotional heights of Shakespeare.>>

Note: Dynamically, this is the "tension" between the Sun and TD10.

<<O'Neill's tragic view of life was perpetuated in his relationships with the three women he married--two of whom he divorced--and with his three children. His elder son, Eugene O'Neill, Jr. (by his first wife, Kathleen Jenkins), committed suicide at 40, while his younger son, Shane (by his second wife, Agnes Boulton), drifted into a life of emotional instability. His daughter, Oona (also by Agnes Boulton), was cut out of his life when, at 18, she infuriated him by marrying Charlie Chaplin, who was O'Neill's age.>>

Note: His children are the concrete symbol of his Sun in physical terms. They are "marked" by TD10.

Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:46:33 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] TD10: Eugene O'Neill
I mean the relationship his children have with him, which is the result of what he was as a father. The Sun is a symbol of fatherly virility and integrity, or to put it better, the father, or you as a father, or the experience with the father or with fatherhood, is intimately related to the natal Sun in all charts, masculine or feminine. Your children are concrete physical symbols of who you are as a father, which in turn expresses who you are as a man (Sun in a masculine nativity). Of course I have in mind your personal experience of your Sun, not your children's, but inevitably, you will transmit to them the astrological determinations of your natal Sun, you will always leave your mark on them.

<<O'Neill's final years were spent in grim frustration. Unable to work, he longed for his death and sat waiting for it in a Boston hotel, seeing no one except his doctor, a nurse, and his third wife, Carlotta Monterey. O'Neill died as broken and tragic a figure as any he had created for the stage.>>

Note: In his physical/external life, he is tragically "marked" by TD10. But spiritually, the Sun soared and left an inheritance that made him immortal for having touched the deepest recesses of the human condition, redeeming what is essentially human (Sun) in his characters.

In the following quote one can see the essential centaurean paradigm and the "alienation" clue regarding TD10, here expressed in the tension between the Sun and TD10:

<<Most all of his main characters are xenoi, those who are socially and spiritually alienated from their country's ethos and feel psychologically dismembered; or metoikoi, resident aliens, people who are superficially accepted by the society but feel rather like foreigners without their human rights fully granted; or barbaroi, so-called barbarians.  They strive to achieve what they believe to be their true identities and some wear masks to perform different personas attempting to gain mastery over others or themselves.  Their human relationships are often controlled by their creative urge, which, in the process of zoës parousia or self-presentation, inevitably turns to destructive, often insane impulses tearing their integrity of bios. Madness of bios and ecstasy of zoë, however, are two of major aspects of the Dionysiac myth and ONeill presents his audiences opportunities to experience verisimilitude of such double feelings through characterization, use of masks, asides, sound effects, lighting and other stage techniques. The tragic resolution in the end, in most of them, is the triumph of the indestructible, feminine force of life, zoë. The power of his plays seems to spring mainly from the intensity of characterization and their poeticized colloquialism, which may be called barbarostomia, a Greek word for barbaric ways of speaking.>> [ ]



Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 07:14:10 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] TD10 and the Black Moon

The symbolism of the True Black Moon, among many other things, has to do with succubi and incubi:

In 1981, Hollywood produced 2 films dealing with the subject (none unfortunately has release dates in the IMDB). The first was "The Entity", based on a true story and starring Barbara Hershey. The IMDB summarizes the plot:

<<Carla Moran awakens one night to find herself being beaten and raped by an unseen presence. Terrified of what's happening to her, and shunned by friends and family who think she's lost her mind, she seeks help from parapsychologists. The researchers soon discover that evil spiritual force has been drawn to Carla and is responsible for the violent attacks. The question now, however, is how do they stop it? Based on a supposedly true story.>>

This movie, in my opinion, exaggerates, but the story is not that uncommon in real life. I know personally a few...

The second movie is to me much more realistic capturing the erotic and "inconfessable" darker dimensions and loneliness of this type of experience. It practically disappeared and is difficult to find. This film is very dark, morbid, and ghostly, typical of the osculating Black Moon, and was criticized as being stupid and of the lowest quality. From what I remember of the only time a saw it many years ago, putting its artistic value aside, it was a good depiction of the psychological atmosphere that accompanies the succubi and incubi. My guess is that the strong erotism and the morally controversial, misunderstood, and terrifying subject-matter condemned it to failure.

It is more like an erotic-horror movie, and it received several silly titles:

Satan's Mistress (1981)
... aka Dark Eyes (1981)
... aka Demon Rage (1981)
... aka Fury of the Succubus (1981)

Of course the use of the word "succubus" is a mistake. The evil spirit was really an incubus, i.e., male.

A summary of the plot from the IMDB:

<<Horror movie about a frustrated housewife who begins having nightly trysts with a tall, dark stranger who turns out to be a ghost from the other side. Thus begins her descent into dementia, as she begins to distance herself even further from her husband and kids while painting portraits of her enigmatic new lover.>>

The actress in this case was Lana Wood, sister of Natalie Wood and well-known actress in James Bond movies. She was born according to the IMDB on March 1, 1946:

      Sun = 10,18 Pisces (noon GMT)
      TD10 = 10,46 Scorpio

while Barbara Hershey was born 5 Feb 1948: TD10 = 11,49 Scorpio

The role of the True Black Moon is seen in the following fact: during 1981, it passed (conjunction) no less than 13 times over the TD10 position of both actresses, and passed at least 8 times over transiting TD10. This is a rare occurrence.

Additionally, in the case of Lana Wood, the relationship is much more significant because transiting TD10 stationed that year in 10,16 Sagittarius (precession-corrected), the exact square point of her natal Sun.

This transit of TD10 combined with the Black Moon apparently gave a fatal blow to Lana Wood's career, because according to the IMDB, after this, she made only another apparition the next year ("Capitol"), and the list stops. Other than 2 documentaries on the James Bond series released in the year 2000, she apparently retired at that time. It was the end of her acting career.



Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:37:01 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] TD10 and the Black Moon, 2

I was in a hurry this morning and made some mistakes in my post. The significant facts regarding Lana Wood and the "Dark Eyes" 1981 movie are as follows:

1-) on the mundane level:

That year, transiting Black Moon and transiting TD10 formed a conjunction in 10-11 Sagittarius. The previous TD10/Black Moon conjunction had happened in 1972.

As is characteristic of the transiting Osculating Black Moon, there were at least 8 conjunctions that year, plus many others the year before. This corresponds to Hollywood releasing 2 movies on the same occult-sexual subject the same year.

2-) on the crossed mundane/personal level:

Lana Wood (b. March 1 1946) has the Sun in 10 Pisces, therefore, the Black Moon/TD10 transiting conjunctions are making exact squares to it. The mundane significance of the conjunction is affecting her directly and critically. She is the main protagonist of the film, and 1 year after the movie was released, at 36, her acting career stops.

3-) on the personal level:

Transiting Black Moon in 1981 also makes 13 conjunctions with Lana Wood's natal TD10, plus the 8 conjunctions with transiting TD10 that exactly square her natal Sun. She also has the Sun and TD10 in a tight trine aspect at birth.

The "death" of her career may not be directly related to the failure (or actual ridicule) of the "Dark Eyes" film. Her sister Natalie, 2 years older than her, drowned that year on November 29th, under mysterious circumstances. Lana published her sister's biography in 1985. It can also be related to the fact that Lana did become "erotically too old" to perform the Bond-girl roles with which she made her career...

Anyway, all 3 reasons are related to the Black Moon.



Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:43:18 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] TD10: keywords

I have outlined before my method to derive keywords. The explanation can be read after the list of keywords in my site. Here is a preliminary exercise in applying that method to the material I have presented on TD10:

      disconnection, alienation
      lack, emptiness, carcass
      nihilism, desolation,
      surrender, death, neglect
      pain, depth, profound
      shadow, darkness, terror
      loneliness, oppression,
      cross, seal, stigma
      invincible, indestructible
      rock formations
      the intelligibility of chaos

If you do not understand how these keywords were extracted from the TD10 material posted (including the Ben Gurion case, which I decline to comment, and my notes of the past collected in my site), please read the explanation at the end of my keywords page:



Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 12:15:02 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] TD10: historical events in Costa Rica

On April 12th, 2000, I wrote 2 posts in another forum with the subject "events in Costa Rica", where I tried to examine astrologically what had just happened then. Now, 2 and a half years later, the significance and historical transcendence of those events is more clear and confirmed by practically the whole of Costa Rican society.

I realize now, that the day that marked the beginning of those events, what triggered it all, was a TD10 incarnation (exact Sun/TD10 conjunction). I want to quote the relevant, very shortened part here:

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:31:52 -0600
Subject: [crp] events in Costa Rica
On March 20, 2000, at 9:55 p.m., the Congress approved in 1st debate by a large majority a new "electrical combo" law that aimed at opening the electrification and telecommunications market to private entrepreneurs and which eventually meant the extermination of the state-owned Institute of Electricity, which has had the monopoly since 1949 and has been an essential element of Costa Rica's development.
The Second Republic of 1948 was the consolidation of a "beneficent state" characterized by state-owned social services (banks/credit, electrification/telecommunications, insurance, health...) and labor legislation which were based on a socialist conception of the state. The profits belong to the state and are always re-used in development projects and credit that extended the services to the rural areas and to the poor, where the big employers and industries indirectly provide the resources. This model has been systematically replaced in the last 10 or 15 years by the "open-market" neo-liberal model of "wild capitalism", which should result in better services and economical statistics but breaks the solidarity and widens the gap between the rich and the poor (please forgive me because I understand little of economy).
The dismantling of the socialist model and its replacement by wild capitalism has always been strongly controversial and opposed in Costa Rica, although it has been welcomed because the state had become so inefficient. And the Institute of Electrification had been increasingly weakened by the imposition of liberal laws, but something extraordinary happened this time: immediately after the approval of the electrical combo, strong popular protest and mass street demonstrations spread all over the country.
The mass-movement was very widespread and became violent when the police tried to break the street blockades. The country started to fall in a state of social unrest that was very dangerous, and above all, very, very uncommon. These things don't happen in Costa Rica! This is the first time in my life that I have seen them! Let's consider some of the transits when the "electrical combo" was approved at Congress (20 march 21:55 +6h, precessed to May 8 1948):
Sun = 0,50 Aries
TD10 = 1,43 Aries
the Sun is about to "crack", it is entering a very "wild" zone...
The whole country became increasingly unstable during the following 2 weeks, traffic was semi-paralyzed, and massive transportation strikes were menacing complete paralyzation of the whole territory. Costa Rican state was "besieged" by the labor unions, the university and high school students, the state workers, and the opposition and active campaigns of many prominent intellectuals.
Something was becoming furious...
People were saying no! to the government, and the government (both the executive and the legislative branch) was forced to halt the "combo" project and change direction.

What I want to do now is offer one or two ideas of the role of TD10 here.

1-) TD10 works both ways: it suggests the passing of a law that goes against the people's will (Sun), and it also suggests the complete and massive resistance of the people who radically opposed the (obscure) will of the government.

2-) The signing of the agreement by the corrupt majority of Costa Rican ruling class, and the resulting mobilization of the population against the government, evidenced an alienated Sun, and also a society (or a Sun) that was fighting against its alienation.

NOTE: a definition of the word "alienate" is useful here: <<to make indifferent or averse, strange>>

3-) TD10 completely nullified the will of the alienated Government, of a dark or obscure Sun, and forced a "heroic" or epic mobilization of the population that was successful in establishing its will: the Sun was strengthened.

4-) The reaction against oppression was definitive and radical. Institutions like the Instititue of Electrification, the Social Security (universal and free medical services), the absence of an army (abolished in 1949), are the "rock formations" at the root of national identity.

5-) Unlike Pluto, TD10 is "humanized", and in the case of Sun/TD10, the humanization is "you cannot take what is ours, this is not negotiable ". The president (the Sun) provoked a "TD10 reaction", a return to or realization of our historical and spiritual roots.

6-) It was dramatically clear that in Costa Rica the ruling class, acting in pure self-interest (Sun), was willing to sell one of the most fundamental conquests that became part of the national identity. This is an enemy that is inside.

7-) In general, I think, in this case Sun/TD10 was more positive. Most Costa Ricans see what happened with the electrification "combo" laws as a moment of glory and pride (Sun) in our history.

This reflections of course are not definitive, they are only tentative.



Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 06:59:48 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] TD10: 3 more examples

Giusseppe Garibaldi
b. July 4, 1807
6 a.m. (no source)
Nice -0h24m59s
Sun = 11,15 Cancer
TD10 = 11,57 Libra
Hidalgo = 11,31 Capricorn
-the square is definitely significant here: the Sun-hero fights against TD10.

CNN's "The Valley of Death" - Operation Tailwind broadcast
June 7, 1998
22h EDT
Sun = 17,06 Gemini
TD10 = 16,16 Pisces
-on the alleged use of nerve gas in secret operation against American defectors in Laos in 1970.

Allan Kardec
b. October 3, 1804 (October 4 is given often)
Sun = 10,03 Libra (Oct 3 noon GMT)
Sun = 11,03 Libra (Oct 4 noon GMT)
TD10 = 12,04 Libra
- the codifier of Spiritist Doctrine. On October 3, the distance is 2 degrees, but I feel it is significant.



Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:36:02 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] TD10: South Africa's apartheid

My reference to the termination of South Africa's "apartheid" sent me to check TD10 in that case. This is what I found:

This site quotes from Campion's book:

<<"After protracted negotiations a new multi-racial constitution was agreed and signed on the night of 17-18 November 1993. The new constitution came into effect at 00.00 hrs. 27 April 1994.... This was far more than a mere legal moment. The flag changing ceremonies were accompanied by celebrations and fireworks, and the headlines in South Africa greeted the birth of freedom".>>

27 April 1994:
Sun = 6,26 Taurus
TD10 = 6,52 Aquarius
Ascendant = 9 Aquarius

Now let's check the personified symbol of the process:

Nelson Mandela
b. July 18, 1918
8:45 a.m. - 2h (no source)
Sun = 24,50 Cancer
TD10 = 29,39 Libra

This is very wide and loose, but check out the transit of TD10 in 1993 during the months previous to the signing of the new multi-racial constitution (to account for precession, I will use sidereal positions here):

Madela's natal Sun = 1,13 Cancer

transiting TD10:

31 Jan 1993  0Cp47
10 Feb 1993  1Cp29
29 Aug 1993  1Cp20
 8 Sep 1993  1Cp04
18 Oct 1993  0Cp58
28 Oct 1993  1Cp13
 7 Nov 1993  1Cp33

According to the quotes from Campion's book above:

<<"Nelson Mandela was elected the first black president at 12.15 p.m. 9 May 1994, and was formally inaugurated at 11.19.59 BST on 10 May 1994, in Pretoria. This represents the final de facto, de jure and ceremonial creation of the new African ruled South African ruled South Africa ..." Campion, "The Book of World Horoscopes," p. 345-346.>>

Now check the transit of Uranus over the previous TD10 position:

27 Mar 1994  1Cp10
 6 Apr 1994  1Cp25
26 May 1994  1Cp25
 5 Jun 1994  1Cp11

Another very neat confirmation of the action of TD10 in this case is this: if we use the coordinates of Pretoria to obtain the Johndro geodesic Midheaven, we get:

South Africa geodesic M.C. = 6,40 Aries (sidereal)
Mandela's natal TD10 = 6,03 Libra.



Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:58:29 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] Berlin Wall Down / 1999 TD10

Jonathan Dunn wrote:
>November 9, 1989. 
>10.30 pm the border was opened there.
>That moment meant the end of the Berlin Wall.
>1999 TD10 5:12 Capricorn
>VTX       5:04 Capricorn
>Venus     4:31 Capricorn

To me, having the value of TD10 emphasized (Venus) doesn't mean that TD10 means bringing the wall down. TD10 is the Wall itself. Venus enhances its symbolical value precisely that day, when "The Wall", now brought down, became forever the eternal symbol of oppression, divisiveness, and alienation. The same can be said about the other dates, including the termination of Apartheid.

The cosmic significance of that day has to be seen (in my opinion, of course) in the aspects of the Sun. The integration, the triumph and the glory of that day and the ones that followed are expression of a glorified Sun. The aspects are significant:

Lunar Apogee=15Sc53
OM67 =16Aq36
Sun  =17Sc28

"Bringing down the wall" (like felling down a tree) is a very good symbol of a square aspect. The main significator here is the Hidalgo/OM67 conjunction, in exact square to the Mercury/Sun (and Pluto/Black Moon) conjunction. OM67 is a long-range sdo (period 959 years) , while Hidalgo very much matches the original "cry of freedom" (like in Garibaldi and many other political activists) historical reference to Father Hidalgo.

Nevertheless, I believe that you [Jon Dunn] have brought an important and valuable clue that complements what I have found. "consolidation and agglomeration", like the "rock formations" that I intuitively saw, may represent the possible positive meaning of TD10.



Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:33:36 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] Berlin Wall Down / 1999 TD10

... the "status quo" of TD10 is one of complete unrest and disturbance (the oppression, the alienation). That is why I feel TD10 is not bringing down the wall but is the Wall itself. This idea appeared already in the case of Saint-Saens:

<< 3- TD10 is here a defensive "wall" against Sun/Venus excesses>>

TD10 has a unique "sdo-to-Saturn" dynamics, which I explained with the idea that unlike the other sdo's, TD10 penetrates, it "comes here to stay", like a colonizer. In this sense, the colonizer is a large-scale disturber, but also (to use your words) agglomerator and amalgamator...

The feeling I get from TD10 is different from other large eccentricity orbits in general. I have been imagining that this may be related to its relatively low inclination (5-6 degrees), to which I referred tentatively as "limited dynamic flexibility".

This point about the inclination is a recent intuition I had when comparing TD10's action with Pluto's action. I don't feel in TD10 the "cathalizer", storming, "wild" and transformative effect of Pluto or of Pholus. The orbit of TD10 is unique and points in another direction... imaginatively: towards Saturn.

But in terms of TD10's positive aspect, I feel one can find it in its opposite, and that's why your words "amalgamation, agglomeration " feel just right to me because they belong to the same "semantic  cell" that the "rock formations"; they are a very important part of the puzzle.



Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:11:01 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] Berlin Wall Down / 1999 TD10

November 9, 1989 10.30 pm (Wall down )
13-aug 1961 1am (Wall up)
1999 TD10=17Sc40

With precession from 1961 the Sun in 1989 would be in 17,04 Scorpio, but the Sun/TD10 conjunction is still exact. One consideration would be to think if the chart of the Wall's ending, equivalent to a death chart, charts the Wall itself or its death (both strongly related to TD10 anyway).

Venus over TD10 the day of "death" can be seen as the "pacification" of TD10. It made me remember a similar case involving Venus/TL66 (found in my notes on TL66). This is the relevant part:

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:46:46 -0600
It is well-know that the Thirty Years War ended with the 2 treaties of 1648 called "the peace of Westphalia". The second treaty in Osnabrück October 24, 1648, effectively terminated the war over all of Europe. If we take 12h GMT as reference, we find:
Sun = 1,47 Sorpio
Mercury = 5,40 Sorpio
1996TL66 = 10,57 Sorpio
Venus = 11,56 Sorpio
Here Venus conjunct 1996TL66, close to Sun and Mercury "isolated" in just 10 degrees could be an apt symbol for this peace, which one could interpret as the peace that comes after the whirlwind has passed... or as the "redeeming" light of TL66.
During the whole period of the war (23 May 1648 to 24 Oct 1648), 1996TL66 moved from 6 Scorpio (the position of Mercury above) to 11 Scorpio (the position of Venus above). Pluto, although it is in 10 Taurus in 1618, moved on to 9 Gemini in 1648.
This seems to make TL66 more significant in terms of the War, unless one assumes that astrology measures only cause and effect and that the chart of its end cannot be used as radical of the war, only a radical of the peace... using this chart as a radical for the War is equivalent to using the death chart as a radical of the person instead of the birth chart.

<<On August 11, 1961 alone more than 4,000 people from Eastern Germany fled across the border into West Berlin as rumors went about of a barrier between the two cities. Only two days later at about 1:00 in the morning the border was sealed off with barbed wire and streets were dug up...>>

That August 11th there was an anular eclipse of the Sun in 18,31 Leo (square TD10 in 17,39 Scorpio). This eclipse is therefore identified with the Wall. Checking the (Secondary and precessed) progressed lunations (e.g. with Riyal), one finds that the Wall was brought down after 28.2 years, when the precessed progressed Moon and Sun were in conjunction again:

pr. Sun = 17,12 Virgo
pr. Moon = 17,43 Virgo

This progressed secondary lunation misses the date the Wall fell by 0.6 months (about 2 weeks). The Wall completed its progressed lunation cycle precisely and was brought down 2 weeks later when tr. Sun was in exact conjunction with the radical TD10.

NOTE: my previous examination of the Berlin Wall is found in my "Notes on Chariklo":


NOTE: more TD10-specific material can be found in recent posts on Mahler , Sibelius, Sain-Saens, Vaughan Williams , Edmund Husserl, Admiral Nelson. See also Further Notes on TD10

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