Darth Vader and Star Wars
Astrological notes by Juan Antonio Revilla

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:26:20 -0600
Subject: Re: flashback: ADHD, Chiron opp Uranus

Josh Payne wrote:  <<Uranus becomes Obi-Wan (and the Jedi in general), Saturn is Darth Vader (the Dark Side, the Empire, the Sith), and Chiron is Luke.>>

First, I want to say that I enjoyed your post a lot, and I also think it is valid trying to identify the characters with planets. So I tried to figure out myself how I would do that, with your ideas as a basis.

I would like to propose this: the jedis are outsiders, survivors of another epoch, warriors, bearers of transcendental forces... "The Force" and Yoda are Pluto, the jedis are the centaurs (not Uranus), and Luke certainly fits with Chiron, as you say, the orphaned saviour and redeemer.

Personally, Darth Vader is Uranus to me. He is the disrupter, he is the one in opposition with Chiron. The dynamics of the story, as you so brilliantly point out, gravitate around the Luke-Vader relationship (Chiron-Uranus opposition).

And I see, contrary to you, Obi-Wan Kenobi as Saturn, the real and only father figure Luke had, the one who taught him and initiated him into manhood and the responsability of his destiny. These are Saturn things. He was the representative of his lineage, his legacy, his past... It was Vader who BROKE with all that (Uranus).

This is how I feel. I am delighted that you showed me this path to understanding the "centaurology" of the saga.



Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:30:25 -0600
Subject: Re: Star Wars

Charles Carter associated Uranus with dictators and tyrants. Liz Greene thinks that Uranus incarnates the "Iceman" archetype, as exemplified in Eugene O'Neill's "The Iceman Cometh" (I haven't read it). She says (re-translating from Spanish):

[begin quote]
"Psychiatry calls him the psychopath, a condition considered impossible to treat and incurable. We tend to use the label "psychopaths" with persons that appear to have no feelings. Psychiatry defines this condition as a state of inherent moral inferiority, meaning that, when inflicting pain in others, there are no feelings of guilt. At the emptional level, the person remains untouched. He can commit an anti-social or cruel action without feeling any remorse or empathy. I prefer to call such a person "Iceman": it is a mythical figure. I think that, in some way, it is the shadow of the masculine principle, its extreme limit... I think that the Gorgone is connected with Pluto, and the Iceman with Uranus."
[end quote]

This, in a way, is a description Darth Vader. I like a lot the symbolism of Luke as Chiron, going from his world of Saturn to the realm of Uranus, to meet his "dark father". The relationship between Luke and Vader is very well represented by the Chiron-Uranus opposition. There is specially one scene, at the end of --to me the best of the three films-- "The Empire Strikes Back", where evrything is developed in a most wonderful mythical staging (I always felt this whole film to be an archetype of Pluto):

Hans Solo has been "frozen" into metal and taken away. Vader stays, knowing that Luke is near and about to confront him. Luke appears, innocent and fearless, like Siegfried when facing the dragon, and they engage in combat. Vader wants to bring out the boy's dark side of hate and anger (Uranus) but remains loyal to his his roots and integrity (Saturn). He knows not fear. But Vader is stronger (Uranus vs Chiron), and, realizing Luke will not give himself to feelings of rage and hatred, tells him who he is: "I AM YOUR FATHER!". Then Luke shrieks and trembles, to end up at the mercy of Vader, who, not yet willing to kill him, cuts Luke's hand amputating it, leaving the boy at his mercy. Vader, still unwilling to kill him, says: "SEARCH YOUR FEELINGS!". Now Luke knows he is telling the truth, now he knows what fear is... He cries out "NO!" in desperation and throws himself to the abyss, from which he is saved only by his twin sister.



Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:52:48 -0600
Subject: Re: Star Wars

...Vader, the Iceman-Uranus, died, to give life again to Anakin Skywalker. He stopped being Vader (Uranus) and became a Jedi (Centaur) again. Vader had no feelings, but there was something left of Anakin the Jedi, albeit only his son Luke believed so. His redemption consisted in destroying "Dark" Vader, symbolyzed by his black mask and what was left of his already-dead body being consumed by the flames in the funeral pyre.



Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:47:22 -0600
Subject: Re: Star Wars

... I'm just trying to adapt the story to the symbolism of Chiron-opposition-Uranus. At least to me, it doesn't look artificial to put the Vader principle in Uranus and the Anakin Skywalker (Jedi) principle in Chiron and the Centaurs. There are other possible adaptations...



Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:46:49 -0600
Subject: Re: The Rose Hill and Kevorkian

... It becomes even stronger to me the association of Saturn not with Vader but with Luke's mentors, Joda and Obi-Wan. When he is in Joda's planet, just about to leave in search of Vader, the Saturnian role becomes clear, as the 2 figures represent the sanction of authority, to which he rebels, leaving them behind (Saturn's realm being left by Chiron) in order to pursue his higher destiny of a liberating hero (going to the "Iceman" world of Vader-Uranus). Yoda, though I once thought could be Pluto, appears now very Saturnian to me. "The Force", of course, is still wonderfully plutonian, as Yoda's planet is. The Jedi's "getting trained" in this planet (Saturn-Pluto) is a good astronomical image of the Centaurs.

... It is easier *astrologically* to associate Uranus with the extreme dictatorial cutting of a hand with a laser sword than it is imagining Saturn doing that. The conservative Saturnians in the movie, as Jonathan suggested, are not Vader but the people of the Alliance, and, contrary to Josh's image, Obi-Wan is very Saturnian to me, like a good old father would be. His behaviour with Luke is always that of the father Luke never had. Vader, on the other hand, in a classical Uranian fashion, broke with the laws of tradition and chose the path of disruption, abandoning his past and family. Saturn would never do that.

... The "shift" from one level of reality or of consciousness to another is a very centaurean thing. This is what they represent, and the reason why death and dying are related to them, in the modern sense of facing those realities and the beginnings of a new "culture about death" in the good sense, a culture that has been denied as taboo in the past. Centaurs always deal with taboo, trying to break it, "para bien o para mal".

... I just would like to emphasize how evil Uranus can be in this process, becoming deviant and anti-social, trying to "torpedo" Saturn out of extreme rigidity that manifests in the denial of commitment and the blind rejection of tradition, as it is the fashionable today. I use the word "evil" only because I hate when I see Saturn being demonized for the sake of Uranus, underestimating the negative and dark side of Uranus.

... Astrologically, Uranus can be extremely rigid in its denying of commitment, becoming very disruptive and destructive. This can be seen clearly, for example, in the behaviour of the U.S. against other nations that are held under the paternalizing and opressive Sun-square-Saturn sense of superiority. This is the "Empire" attitude, and it describes the U.S. history of involvement in world politics. It is a good example of how well Uranus describes imperialism (not Saturn).

Centaurs will always try to destroy that, by means of "the sword", or "the word".



Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:50:11 -0600
Subject: Re: Darth/Uranus/Etc.

... It ain't hard to see Vader unattached and coldly univolved in his confrontation with Luke, even if he is trying to invoke plutonian reactions in him. He is quite "icy" in all that scene. I can see that for Luke it was a very plutonian ordeal, but I find no problem in seeing the Vader/Uranus equation even here.

... Pluto is devouring, like a well-behaved "great mother" archetype... the spider-mother, the pit. And yes, Uranus insists in "freedom" but also in twistedness, in rebellion against order and authority, in going your own way, in being utterly cynical (or criminal) and going against things, in anarchy, etc. This still fits with Vader trying to "steal" Luke to the "dark side". It is an "icy" dark side what Vader represents, maybe not plutonian but Uranian?

... It is just now that I am seeing this Vader/Uranus equation, created anew in my imagination after 20 years of seeing only Pluto here. It was Josh's idea on Chiron/Uranus that brought me to this. Vader abandoned Luke and Leia when they were children to follow his own twisted path. This also is very Uranian. A father incapable of taking responsibility as such, playing havoc with other people's lives.

... Vader may still be Uranus playing mouse and cat with Luke. He was a selfish bastard in his attitude toward Luke, thinking in making him his ally, never in love or loyalty, let alone in being a father, as Obi-Wan was. He really didn't cared for Luke's feelings, until the very end when he saw him being teared apart by the Emperor's force. At the last moment, facing death, he sacrificed himself out of love for Luke, and was redeemed in the Plutonian way, i.e., the way of love-and-death. The Iceman was gone, and so was Vader.

... I agree that the whole scene is very plutonian. The whole film is, and particularly that scene where they fight. For years I have taken it as a paradigm of Pluto. I still think it is plutonian, but that doesn't debilitate the symbolism of Vader as Uranus and not Pluto, which I feel illuminates wonderfully the ordeal of Luke/Chiron, going from Saturn to Uranus, and from Uranus to Saturn. This was a wonderful insight of Josh.



Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:08:38 -0600
Subject: Re: Darth/Uranus/Etc.

I was reading Charles Carter again. Of course he didn't know much about Pluto back then, but he says Uranus is "fixed" and strongly related to Scorpio.

I am not clinging to this. I'm only intrigued that maybe Vader could be Uranus instead of Pluto, as I always thought. When I think of him, my mind says: Uranus...

We underestimate Uranus dark side. I don't see Pluto as Empire, and can see it clearly in Uranus. He won't accept anybody else's authority but himself. He is an autocrat bastard that doesn't care to compromise. He's hard with feelings because he just wants to go his way. Tyranny in this sense is Uranian. Pluto's power is more smashing and far-reaching, and it is very easy to see the anti-social lunatic tyrant in Uranus. Uranus also wants to "get hold" of his own life, to be the only one in control. As I said once, you can see this a lot in international politics and how the "world powers" want everybody else in the world to do what they want, how they take what they want... To me this is Uranian. I don't see Uranus as the "proliferation of chaos" but as "the rule of the one". Psychologically this will take you away from authority and makes you try to follow your own path (which is why, to me, socially, is so often found in homosexuals and in adultery, because you have to follow your own way *against* tradition and social sanction). If you take this attitude internationally, you have imperialism, where one powerful country will not allow any other country to impose anything, and where the powerful country thinks he can do whatever he likes for his own benefit.

... Uranus is a sociopath, and can be very Scorpionic, although I don't like to make sign associations. I think that planet/sign associations blurr the meaning of both.

... leaving your children fatherless is Uranian selfishness and inability to cope with commitment and social expectations.

GEORGE LUCAS (MAY 14, 1944, 05:40:00 AM PWT, +07:00, 121W00', 37N39',  ODESTO, CA) source: Gauquelin, Michel & Francoise. Gauquelin Book of American Charts, 1982. (D=AA) (from Richard Nolle's site)

"Never underestimate the dark side of..." Uranus.



Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 00:48:26 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Uranus and Star Wars

The "Star Wars" saga has a "science fiction", Hollywood-marketing, technological consumer aspect that is aimed at the Declaration of Independence chart, but it also has a thematic aspect, the armed military fighting against an oppressive regime or empire, which is exactly what the Boyd Chart stands for, literally speaking.

In terms of the group of astrologers who use them, I think it is accurate to say that the Boyd chart is to the Sibley (or any other July 4th 1776) chart as the sidereal zodiac is the to the tropical zodiac (users of the Boyd chart have been mostly sidereal astrologers anyway).

For the record: I always work in the sidereal zodiac.

Boyd sidereal Uranus = 13,18 Taurus
Lucas sidereal Uranus = 14,02 Taurus (orb=0,44')

Sibley tropical Uranus = 8,55 Gemini
Lucas tropical Uranus = 8,00 Gemini (orb=0,55')

I explain my view of the symbolism of Uranus in a larger socio-economic, political context here:


I had never considered before this Uranus link between George Lucas and the U.S. charts, and now I realize that it is a very nice confirmation of my previous ideas. These ideas involve a view of Uranus which is the traditional Uranus symbolism but *interpreted* in a slightly different way, and constitutes an example of the culturally-determined, politically slanted and relative nature of astrological interpretations, particularly in the cases of Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto.



Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 05:49:58 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] Uranus and Star Wars

>When the chief feature distinguishing "good" from "evil" is how pretty the characters are, it's a clue that maybe the whole saga deserves a second look.

Very interesting, thanks. I think the reason for this being so is that Star Wars is about archetypes. To portray archetypes (which is not the same thing as stereotypes), you have to make them god-like, the bad must look bad, etc. Star Trek is more pedestrian and "social", more about community.

The search for the father, the call of destiny, the meeting with the dragon... all the archetypal stages of the hero's journey are there... it goes to a level where Star Trek never ventures.

However, "The Phantom Menace" and even more "The War of the Clones" absolutely suck in this respect, the archetypal is gone and all you have is vulgar Uranian politics, that justify the criticism made by By David Brin

Elites have an inherent right to arbitrary rule; common citizens needn't be consulted. They may only choose which elite to follow.
"Good" elites should act on their subjective whims, without evidence, argument or accountability.
Any amount of sin can be forgiven if you are important enough.
True leaders are born. It's genetic. The right to rule is inherited.
Justified human emotions can turn a good person evil.

Tolkien and Star Trek maintain their "down to (or back to) earth" link, while Lucas goes far, far away, to a very distant galaxy and very distant time, i.e., to the archetypal world...

Interesting that at the end of "The Return of the Jedi", during and after Luke reunited spiritually with his father(hood), he is shown dressed in black, like a youthful and fresh Vader, and the film ends with Luke as a serene loner or outsider that has accepted his destiny, in contact with his demi-god heritage (his 3 father figures together in spirit), now looking more mature, more positively Uranian, no longer Kironic. He is not after his father anymore, he found him, he knows Leia is his sister, he united himself and is no longer a wounded orphan...



Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 13:37:54 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] Uranus and Star Wars

-- You're on to something.  But,  Darth  is  Pluto to me.  A dark, ruthless entity forcing deep transformation in others.

I did this association myself for many years.

There is a lot of Pluto in the story, specially in "The Empire Strikes Back" (have not seen the new episode 3), which is why I like this episode more than the others put together. Pluto pervades the whole atmosphere of that film from start to end. I also think "the Force", and "the dark side of the Force" are very plutonian.

But Vader fits Liz Greene's description of "The Iceman", the dark side of Uranus. Why do we associate "dark", "deep", "ruthless" etc. only with Pluto? I think astrologers underestimate the dark side of Uranus.

Vader is Vader/Anakin. He develops a personal interest in, and a dynamical relationship with Luke (in the middle) and Obi Wan and Yoda (on the other side). This is not a plutonian dynamics, Pluto is not "personal". The Chironian dynamics between Saturn and Uranus in my opinion describes this relationship.

Let's imagine hypothetically that we have to deal with "the dark side" of Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto (Pluto is not like these 3, it has a different nature and dynamics... I will forget this for the moment.) Dealing with this "dark side" is by necessity associated with deep transformations. We have dark-Saturn, dark-Uranus, dark-Neptune, dark-Pluto... each of them is "dark", "evil", etc...

Can you picture the dark, deep, "evil" Uranus character?



Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 07:03:31 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Uranus and Star Wars, 2


Hayden Christensen (born April 19, 1981):

Sun = 29,20 Aries
Uranus = 29,16 Scorpio r.

In "Revenge of the Sith" Anakin Skywalker puts on his black Vader suite and mask for the first time, the Republic becomes an Empire and the jedis become dissidents who lead the insurgence.

world premiere May 15 2005 in Cannes:

Mars = 10,24 Pisces
Uranus = 10,23 Pisces

U.S.A. premiere 19 May 2005:

Sun = 28,51 Taurus (18h U.T.)
Christensen Uranus = 29,16 Scorpio



Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:47:34 -0600
Subject: Re: [Centaurs] Uranus and Star Wars, 2

To some extent this correlation holds becuse Uranus=Gee Whiz Special Effects

Yes. This is the usual way of seeing Uranus and it is ok to me.

the idea is that it could also be seen from another perspective, i.e., the thematic content, showing the social dynamics of Uranus, and the parallels with what goes on in the world at the same time.

Regarding Darth Vader ("Dark Father" according to Lucas himself in an interview):

I was trying to find the exact day when actor Hayden Christensen, during the days of shooting, put his Darth Vader suit for the first time, replacing the usual stunt actors. I thought: this was really the day of Vader's incarnation... but I guess it would be nearly impossible to find this.

I saw in cable an interview where he and others were talking about this specific moment, how awesome it was to everybody. I guess it will later be in dvd, but have little hope of finding the date.
“(Anakin) is very conflicted and confused and he’s being pulled in all these different directions,” Christensen says. “This is where you see Anakin undergo change. It was what I wanted to do in the last (film) and for good reason was asked to refrain and therefore got to make that transition entirely in this film, which is essentially what it’s about. It’s about Anakin becoming dark and the republic becoming an empire.”

What was it like putting on the Darth Vader mask for the first time?
It was so cool. It was big deal for me. I was fresh out of high school when I started playing Anakin. So doing the mask hits almost every emotion ­ as you could imagine. Getting to act behind a mask in general is, for an actor, a very freeing experience. When that face as Darth Vader comes down, it’s very empowering, very beastly.
What did you enjoy most about it?
What I enjoyed the most was looking at other people while they were looking at me to see their reactions. And there was excitement, awe. And what was most surprising was that there was even a glimmer of fear in a lot of them. Some sort of respectful bow of the head. They were people I knew, who knew it was me, so it was quite funny from inside the mask.
The great irony is that Darth Vader is the villain but everyone loves him …
Yeah. I don't know if it says more about us as a society or about (Star Wars director) George Lucas being able to create this villain that people care about and almost root for. And you know in this film, when Anakin Skywalker makes that final transition to Darth Vader, it really changes how you feel about Darth Vader from all those years ago. It changes the whole character and he becomes a much more pathetic figure. Maybe more sympathetic too. You feel sorry for him.


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