Darth Vader and Star Wars
Astrological notes by Juan Antonio Revilla
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:26:20 -0600
Subject: Re: flashback: ADHD, Chiron opp Uranus
Josh Payne wrote: <<Uranus becomes Obi-Wan (and the Jedi in general), Saturn is Darth Vader (the Dark Side, the Empire, the Sith), and Chiron is Luke.>>
First, I want to say that I enjoyed your post a lot, and I also think it is valid trying to identify the characters with planets. So I tried to figure out myself how I would do that, with your ideas as a basis.
I would like to propose this: the jedis are outsiders, survivors of another epoch, warriors, bearers of transcendental forces... "The Force" and Yoda are Pluto, the jedis are the centaurs (not Uranus), and Luke certainly fits with Chiron, as you say, the orphaned saviour and redeemer.
Personally, Darth Vader is Uranus to me. He is the disrupter, he is the one in opposition with Chiron. The dynamics of the story, as you so brilliantly point out, gravitate around the Luke-Vader relationship (Chiron-Uranus opposition).
And I see, contrary to you, Obi-Wan Kenobi as Saturn, the real and only father figure Luke had, the one who taught him and initiated him into manhood and the responsability of his destiny. These are Saturn things. He was the representative of his lineage, his legacy, his past... It was Vader who BROKE with all that (Uranus).
This is how I feel. I am delighted that you showed me this path to understanding the "centaurology" of the saga.
Date: Tue, 13
Apr 1999 12:30:25 -0600
Charles Carter associated Uranus with dictators and tyrants. Liz Greene thinks that Uranus incarnates the "Iceman" archetype, as exemplified in Eugene O'Neill's "The Iceman Cometh" (I haven't read it). She says (re-translating from Spanish):
This, in a way, is a description Darth Vader. I like a lot the symbolism of Luke as Chiron, going from his world of Saturn to the realm of Uranus, to meet his "dark father". The relationship between Luke and Vader is very well represented by the Chiron-Uranus opposition. There is specially one scene, at the end of --to me the best of the three films-- "The Empire Strikes Back", where evrything is developed in a most wonderful mythical staging (I always felt this whole film to be an archetype of Pluto):
Hans Solo has been "frozen" into metal and taken away. Vader stays, knowing that Luke is near and about to confront him. Luke appears, innocent and fearless, like Siegfried when facing the dragon, and they engage in combat. Vader wants to bring out the boy's dark side of hate and anger (Uranus) but remains loyal to his his roots and integrity (Saturn). He knows not fear. But Vader is stronger (Uranus vs Chiron), and, realizing Luke will not give himself to feelings of rage and hatred, tells him who he is: "I AM YOUR FATHER!". Then Luke shrieks and trembles, to end up at the mercy of Vader, who, not yet willing to kill him, cuts Luke's hand amputating it, leaving the boy at his mercy. Vader, still unwilling to kill him, says: "SEARCH YOUR FEELINGS!". Now Luke knows he is telling the truth, now he knows what fear is... He cries out "NO!" in desperation and throws himself to the abyss, from which he is saved only by his twin sister.
Date: Tue, 13
Apr 1999 20:52:48 -0600
...Vader, the Iceman-Uranus, died, to give life again to Anakin Skywalker. He stopped being Vader (Uranus) and became a Jedi (Centaur) again. Vader had no feelings, but there was something left of Anakin the Jedi, albeit only his son Luke believed so. His redemption consisted in destroying "Dark" Vader, symbolyzed by his black mask and what was left of his already-dead body being consumed by the flames in the funeral pyre.
Date: Wed, 14
Apr 1999 08:47:22 -0600
... I'm just trying to adapt the story to the symbolism of Chiron-opposition-Uranus. At least to me, it doesn't look artificial to put the Vader principle in Uranus and the Anakin Skywalker (Jedi) principle in Chiron and the Centaurs. There are other possible adaptations...
Date: Thu, 15
Apr 1999 08:46:49 -0600
... It becomes even stronger to me the association of Saturn not with Vader but with Luke's mentors, Joda and Obi-Wan. When he is in Joda's planet, just about to leave in search of Vader, the Saturnian role becomes clear, as the 2 figures represent the sanction of authority, to which he rebels, leaving them behind (Saturn's realm being left by Chiron) in order to pursue his higher destiny of a liberating hero (going to the "Iceman" world of Vader-Uranus). Yoda, though I once thought could be Pluto, appears now very Saturnian to me. "The Force", of course, is still wonderfully plutonian, as Yoda's planet is. The Jedi's "getting trained" in this planet (Saturn-Pluto) is a good astronomical image of the Centaurs.
... It is easier *astrologically* to associate Uranus with the extreme dictatorial cutting of a hand with a laser sword than it is imagining Saturn doing that. The conservative Saturnians in the movie, as Jonathan suggested, are not Vader but the people of the Alliance, and, contrary to Josh's image, Obi-Wan is very Saturnian to me, like a good old father would be. His behaviour with Luke is always that of the father Luke never had. Vader, on the other hand, in a classical Uranian fashion, broke with the laws of tradition and chose the path of disruption, abandoning his past and family. Saturn would never do that.
... The "shift" from one level of reality or of consciousness to another is a very centaurean thing. This is what they represent, and the reason why death and dying are related to them, in the modern sense of facing those realities and the beginnings of a new "culture about death" in the good sense, a culture that has been denied as taboo in the past. Centaurs always deal with taboo, trying to break it, "para bien o para mal".
... I just would like to emphasize how evil Uranus can be in this process, becoming deviant and anti-social, trying to "torpedo" Saturn out of extreme rigidity that manifests in the denial of commitment and the blind rejection of tradition, as it is the fashionable today. I use the word "evil" only because I hate when I see Saturn being demonized for the sake of Uranus, underestimating the negative and dark side of Uranus.
... Astrologically, Uranus can be extremely rigid in its denying of commitment, becoming very disruptive and destructive. This can be seen clearly, for example, in the behaviour of the U.S. against other nations that are held under the paternalizing and opressive Sun-square-Saturn sense of superiority. This is the "Empire" attitude, and it describes the U.S. history of involvement in world politics. It is a good example of how well Uranus describes imperialism (not Saturn).
Centaurs will always try to destroy that, by means of "the sword", or "the word".
Date: Wed, 21
Apr 1999 19:50:11 -0600
... It ain't hard to see Vader unattached and coldly univolved in his confrontation with Luke, even if he is trying to invoke plutonian reactions in him. He is quite "icy" in all that scene. I can see that for Luke it was a very plutonian ordeal, but I find no problem in seeing the Vader/Uranus equation even here.
... Pluto is devouring, like a well-behaved "great mother" archetype... the spider-mother, the pit. And yes, Uranus insists in "freedom" but also in twistedness, in rebellion against order and authority, in going your own way, in being utterly cynical (or criminal) and going against things, in anarchy, etc. This still fits with Vader trying to "steal" Luke to the "dark side". It is an "icy" dark side what Vader represents, maybe not plutonian but Uranian?
... It is just now that I am seeing this Vader/Uranus equation, created anew in my imagination after 20 years of seeing only Pluto here. It was Josh's idea on Chiron/Uranus that brought me to this. Vader abandoned Luke and Leia when they were children to follow his own twisted path. This also is very Uranian. A father incapable of taking responsibility as such, playing havoc with other people's lives.
... Vader may still be Uranus playing mouse and cat with Luke. He was a selfish bastard in his attitude toward Luke, thinking in making him his ally, never in love or loyalty, let alone in being a father, as Obi-Wan was. He really didn't cared for Luke's feelings, until the very end when he saw him being teared apart by the Emperor's force. At the last moment, facing death, he sacrificed himself out of love for Luke, and was redeemed in the Plutonian way, i.e., the way of love-and-death. The Iceman was gone, and so was Vader.
... I agree that the whole scene is very plutonian. The whole film is, and particularly that scene where they fight. For years I have taken it as a paradigm of Pluto. I still think it is plutonian, but that doesn't debilitate the symbolism of Vader as Uranus and not Pluto, which I feel illuminates wonderfully the ordeal of Luke/Chiron, going from Saturn to Uranus, and from Uranus to Saturn. This was a wonderful insight of Josh.
Date: Fri, 23
Apr 1999 11:08:38 -0600
I was reading Charles Carter again. Of course he didn't know much about Pluto back then, but he says Uranus is "fixed" and strongly related to Scorpio.
I am not clinging to this. I'm only intrigued that maybe Vader could be Uranus instead of Pluto, as I always thought. When I think of him, my mind says: Uranus...
We underestimate Uranus dark side. I don't see Pluto as Empire, and can see it clearly in Uranus. He won't accept anybody else's authority but himself. He is an autocrat bastard that doesn't care to compromise. He's hard with feelings because he just wants to go his way. Tyranny in this sense is Uranian. Pluto's power is more smashing and far-reaching, and it is very easy to see the anti-social lunatic tyrant in Uranus. Uranus also wants to "get hold" of his own life, to be the only one in control. As I said once, you can see this a lot in international politics and how the "world powers" want everybody else in the world to do what they want, how they take what they want... To me this is Uranian. I don't see Uranus as the "proliferation of chaos" but as "the rule of the one". Psychologically this will take you away from authority and makes you try to follow your own path (which is why, to me, socially, is so often found in homosexuals and in adultery, because you have to follow your own way *against* tradition and social sanction). If you take this attitude internationally, you have imperialism, where one powerful country will not allow any other country to impose anything, and where the powerful country thinks he can do whatever he likes for his own benefit.
... Uranus is a sociopath, and can be very Scorpionic, although I don't like to make sign associations. I think that planet/sign associations blurr the meaning of both.
... leaving your children fatherless is Uranian selfishness and inability to cope with commitment and social expectations.
GEORGE LUCAS (MAY 14, 1944, 05:40:00 AM PWT, +07:00, 121W00', 37N39', ODESTO, CA) source: Gauquelin, Michel & Francoise. Gauquelin Book of American Charts, 1982. (D=AA) (from Richard Nolle's site)
"Never underestimate the dark side of..." Uranus.
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 00:48:26 -0600
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