Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:51:13 -0600
Subject: [Centaurs] Jerusalem Wedding Disaster and Pylenor
>Thursday May 24th 2001 10.43pm EET. Jerusalem 35E10 31N47.
I personally do not think that Pylenor can be taken as a signature for this disaster. One of the simplest reasons is that the transit of Pylenor is slow and takes many months. It will stay over Israel's natal Sun until the end of 2001, and considering the events related to the Palestinian conflict/war, I have no doubts that it is related to this and not the collapse of the building. In other words from the point of view of Israel the effects of Pylenor are much more profound than a one-day event.
So I suggest to look at the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation as clues regarding the meaning of Pylenor. More and more the attitude of Israel towards Palestinians, in spite of the massive propaganda by the international press and the relentless American support, evidences something very sick, a "bleeding" inside Israeli culture and values.
I believe that this transit of Pylenor is related to much more than the collapse of a building where dozens of people died by accident. What about dozens of Palestinians boys being killed, or dozens of Israelis butchered by terrorist bombs, and all this propagated by the Press?
Pylenor means something more horrible and transcendent politically and socially speaking, and deals with profound wounds and socio-political adjustments (and collapses) in Israelian society, resulting from the Palestinian resistance and fight for independence, their rejection of what Isael's propagandists pretend to call a Palestinian "state", which is a caricature of what a State really is anywhere else in the world.
Pylenor is related to the image of the "rivers of blood", to the butchering of people, both by Israelis and by Palestinian terrorist attacks. It is related to the humiliation and bleeding of both nations. When the transit is over in late 2001 and early 2002 we may be witnessing important historical developments in this area, for good or evil.
The transit of Juno over Israel's Sun --which is exact when allowing for precession--, much faster, is a better indicator of the wedding. In the disaster chart, a Sun/Flora is conjunct Talos, and the Moon is conjunct the damoclian QJ1. Because of their fast motion (Moon, Sun, Talos, Juno) they are better indicators of the event.
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:12:32 -0600
I do **not** see the influence of Pylenor as being wholly "bad or destructive". Not at all. If you examine my Pylenor keywords, you will find some positive counterparts. For example, the "humiliation" to which I referred can be expressed as humility (will Israel ever be humble in this issue? Who will come to his knees first? The one that bleeds more from wounds inflicted by the other?)
In my opinion Pylenor is not directly violent nor destructive. You can examine the material I have collected in my site and from which I derived the keywords: the violence is more like a side effect only. The collapse of the building --a fleeting moment in a long transit-- can be seen as symbol of Pylenor here, which to me refers **not** to violence or destruction but to something rotten or sick, a blister, a caries, being exposed by the crumbling of the structure.
The collapse of the building is also a good symbol of Jerusalem. Something that is rotten and sick in the inside is exposed when it can resist no more, exactly like what happens with a dental cavity: when it hurts the tooth is already very sick and its structure has crumbled, needing to be removed by surgery. This surgery is a good expression of the positive qualities of Pylenor, as you can check in my keywords.
When the disease comes to the surface and "erupts", there is already a healing process inside that has produced the crisis, and that is why I also mentioned that near the time of the last contact in the first quarter of 2002 we may witness some historical development about this situation, perhaps a more lasting "solution" to the conflict...
The surgery must be applied by the International community, if ever they decide to isolate the infecting agent, which the US unconditional support of Israel no matter what and hypocritical policy toward the Arab world. But with this US president I don't see a solution coming... This is why Pylenor becomes more destructive and violent, perhaps because in this scenario that is required to produce a healing.
I know many do not agree with me. There is seldom agreement in political issues like this. But whether we are conscious of it or not, I believe that politics is always involved in Astrology when it comes to **interpretation** of a national chart, such as that of Israel. Interpreting Pylenor superficially as the collapse of the building and ignoring the handling of the present Palestianian conflict is a political act.
I mentioned that being a slow transit is **one** of the reasons why Pylenor cannot be taken as the main signature of the events surrounding the collapse of the building. Another reason is that I always see transits from the sidereal perspective, i.e., corrected for precession, which in the case of the 1948 chart of Israel becomes (1948--->2001) 0,44':
natal Sun of Israel = 23,40 Taurus
I didn't mention this before because I know very few people use precession-corrected transits or sidereal returns in this forum, but, from my perspective, this means that:
-the conjunction of transiting Juno is almost exact (orb=0,06')
-the time of the last contact will be April 2002, and that of the first contact is right now (exact June 13 in the sidereal perspective).
This strongly suggests what Mary is saying here, that Pylenor will bring some cure, probably as a result of the gruesome situation that it exposes.
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 06:28:55 -0600
The more I think of it, the more clear it becomes that Pylenor refers to the Palestinians *within* Israeli society, and how they are handled by the Israeli government. The symbolism of the Sun and their fight to be recognized as a true state (not what Israel is willing to grant them under the name of "a State") is fitting.
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:26:14 -0600
<<The symbolism of the Sun and their fight to be recognized as a true state (not what Israel is willing to grant them under the name of "a State") is fitting.>>
A confirmation of this association can be seen in the following:
1999: Arafat announces the unilateral proclamation of the Palestinian
The progressed Sun made conjunction with natal Pylenor in March 1999, while the Solar Arc Pylenor (converse) made conjunction with the natal Sun in March 2000. This establishes the range of the Sun/Pylenor solar arc conjunction from early 1999 to early 2000, making Pylenor the focus of Israel's attention: the whole of Israel's life is centered around Pylenor during this period.
From this, one can say that the transit of Pylenor over the natal Sun effective from June 2001 to April 2002 extends in practical terms the Pylenorian emphasis in Israel's chart from 1999 to 2002.
The importance of this transit is enhanced by the position the natal Sun occupies in the chart. The chart is a transition between bowl and locomotive, with the Sun as the leading planet applying to 150 degrees of empty space. This means that Pylenor has not made conjunction with any of Israel's main planets since its conjunction with Jupiter in 1981-82.
Another interesting clue in this regard that illuminates the nature of Pylenor is that Pylenor made opposition to the Sun in 1978, precisely the year of the historical Camp David accords between Begin and Sadat, further suggesting that Pylenor:
1- Is strongly related to the Arab-israelí conflict, or to Israel's dealing with the Arabs.
2- is related to the "cleansing" of the blood, to the catharsis that brings out humbleness.
I feel, as I have been mentioning, and as a result of examining the Sun/Pylenor aspects in the chart of Israel (1978 opposition and 1999-2002 conjunction), that Pylenor represents how the Israelis "see" Palestinians, and Arabs in general
Why? Because of the Pylenor characteristics, some of which are (from my keywords):
<<bleeding, poison, surgery, infection, tumor, cavity, destitute, poverty, loneliness, deprivation, humility, dirty, immoral, shame, piety, fear, gothic, gruesome, cold, corpse, flesh, exposed wound, nakedness, defoliation, slaughter, sordid, social misfit...>>
I have also used the word "butchering", "humiliation", "rivers of blood"...
I mean not a literal application of these words but an adaptation of them to the way Palestinians are treated in Israeli society, i.e., to politics. This is a controversial subject and I understand that many may not agree with me. I am talking of Israel's (and the world's) stereotyped and prejudiced perception of Arabs, which of course is a generality but which nevertheless is evident enough everywhere through the media.
I must add that I once visualized Pylenor as a sort of Quasimodo. I think it could be said that the Arabs are "the Quasimodo" of Israel, and of the (especially US) media, the "parias" of the Middle East. It is also how the Palestinians experience the way they are treated. It works both ways, and is positive and negative all around.
There is an interesting commentary on this that you can read at the following address:
Perception Vs. Reality In The Middle East "Press War", by Danny Schechter
I quote: <<the issue has been framed as Arab versus Jew, with the substantial and vocal peace movement in Israel overlooked and Palestinians referred to as rock throwers and fanatics>> [here is the infection/tumor=Palestinians theme]
Another interesting article, from a Palestinian (anti-zionist) perspective:
I quote (regarding the blood/bleeding/butcher theme):
<<Living up to his reputation as the Butcher
of Beirut, Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon...>>
another article by a Palestinian, written after watching a recent PBS documentary:
Please read fully this last commentary by Ramzy Baroud. It is very sad and touching. I quote (regarding the Quasimodo/humiliation theme):
<<So, here we are Palestinians, the monstrous nightmare that shoves itself in the midst of the world's peaceful sleep. We are the disturbance of the global progress. We are the terrorists that have no motives behind killing but our lust for death and destruction. I turned the television off, but I was no longer in the mood to sleep. No, I wasn't shocked. After years of living in the United States, as a Palestinian, I am aware of the American media's unbalanced perception of me, and my people. But I was indeed saddened.>> <<What will change such an intentionally demonizing picture of Palestinians? The signing of a final status agreement? Unlikely. The silencing of every voice which calls for justice and real peace for the millions of homeless Palestinians? Perhaps.>>
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:52:45 -0600
This chart can be classified in several ways according to M.E. Jones planetary patterns, originally explained in his "Guide to Horoscope Interpretation". It is basically a bucket with Jupiter as handle (all planets above the horizon except Jupiter near the cusp of the 3rd). This makes Jupiter a strong focal determinator of the whole chart.
There is a large empty space of 150 degrees between the Sun in the cusp of the 8th and Jupiter, making the Sun the "leading planet" of the chart, i.e., the one who applies clockwise to the largest empty space, "sweeping" it.
This large space of 150 degrees is what allows us to classify the chart also as intermediate between a locomotive (empty space 120 degrees) and a bowl (empty 180 degrees). The whole chart is dynamically lead by the Sun applying and Jupiter receiving the strength or momentum of the locomotive in the Sun, so the Sun and Jupiter share the dynamical control of the chart.
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 06:38:25 -0600
To fine-tune the exact dates of contact in 1982, I use precession-corrected transits (0,29' in 1982):
first contact = 26 January 1982
I did a little Internet search.
Israel invaded Lebanon on June 6, 1982. The massacre took place September 15-18, 1982, So Pylenor ("rivers of blood", "slaughter") seems to point to it very accurately (as well as to the invasion of Lebanon).
I leave to others to examine other aspects (with other slow asteroids like Pylenor, or only the regular planets) that may account for these events. My interest is only in trying to figure out the possible role of the transits of Pylenor in Isarel's dealings with the Palestinians.
Did tr.Pylenor / Rx. Jupiter meant the invasion of Lebanon and the Sabra and Shatila massacres? My answer would be: "Yes".
Here are details of the massacre from the Internet:
There is a detailed account, for example, in:
Another account, found in
gives a some more detail:
A good reference with many Internet links dealing with the Massacre can be found at:
Here are some news I found, dated January 12, 2001:
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:44:17 -0600
The birth chart of Aries Sharon is at:
In the Arab world he is known as "the butcher of Beirut", and is held responsible for the massacre of Sabra and Shatila (3000 Palestinian civilians were killed in 1982). The Israeli commission had declared him "indirectly responsible" for the killings, and he was forced to resign as Minister of Defense.
natal Mars = 29Cp13
In his birth chart, the Moon is in 25,31 Taurus. Compare this with the Sun of Israel (23,24 Taurus, positions of Israel corrected 0,17' to account for precession in the comparison), and the following:
Israel natal OX3 = 25,51 Scorpio (new positions with today's update)
and about EC98:
Sharon's natal Sun = 7,23 Pisces
I don't have any good idea about the meaning of OX3 or EC98, but Pylenor/94TA stands out in its transit over Israel's Sun and Sharon's Moon. Probably Pylenor, with a humble orbit, will not create wars, but it feeds on the corpses, the hunger, and the rivers of blood, when it is working negatively. It has the coldness of a butcher.
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:58:36 -0600
--from the Britannica:
It seems then that the mandate was enforced long before it was official, and that the official date was September 20, 1923.
I would like to share the following, written by mundane astrologer Jimm Erickson, for years columnist of American Astrology's "Tomorrow's News". He is the most brilliant mundane astrologer I ever read:
the data mentioned is:
a- Israel (Balfour Declaration), October 31, 1917, 11:25 a.m. GMT, Jerusalem,
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 05:34:21 -0600
The present "Intifada" is most of the times traced to Ariel Sharon's defying visit to the "Temple Mount" in Jerusalem, Haram Al-Sharif, the 3rd most sacred place for Muslims in the world. This view has often been disputed, saying that the Intifada was planned by Arafat long before this. But unless one believes that astrology deals with a cause-and-effect mechanism, the symbolical meaning of this visit for astrological purposes remains the same.
The visit took place September 28, 2000, in the early morning. There is a detailed description that provides the exact time, written by Maher Abukhater from the Arabic Media Internet Network - Internews Middle East (I'm sorry I lost the url). I quote only the part that states the exact time:
<<Sharon arrived at the compound around 7:45 flanked by Israeli police.>>
I have an old edition of the International Atlas that does not include the year 2000, so I do not know if daylight time was still in use. According to Astrodienst, it was daylight=4:45 GMT. I use the birth data of Ariel Sharon from Astrodatabank.
Natal Sun of Sharon = 8,25 Pisces
Here the position of Sharon's Sun is corrected for precession. Uncorrected it is 7,23 Pisces.
The visit happened close to a new Moon in 5,00 Libra:
Sun = 5,22 Libra
The Sun (or the previous New Moon) is in exact square to the Venus of Israel:
Venus of Israel = 5,32 Cancer (prec.corrected)
Since the comparisons allowing for precession are much easier in the sidereal zodiac, I would like to continue with it. Using the Fagan/Bradley sidereal zodiac, we see it this way:
Venus of Israel = 10,47 Gemini
As I suggested in my examination of the Islam/Fatwa synastry, apparently Venus can be related to the concept of "sacred places". Putting aside the political exploitation of the personal feeling towards a sacred place that Venus may indicate in these cases, perhaps we can think of the very high value, the "dearest treasure" as synonym of "the holy place".
The situation of the Temple Mount from the Israeli point of view is controversial. In the reference above (obviously a Palestinian point of view), it is explained that:
<<He entered the area of the Haram from the Magharbeh Gate, the closest gate to the Western Wall. He then walked to nearby Al-Aqsa under heavy police protection and attempted to enter the Marawani, located below Al-Aqsa. Israelis say that the Marawani, formerly referred to as Solomon's Stables, could possibly be the area where Solomon's Temple was located some 3000 years ago. They express concern that Muslims have been carrying out renovations within the Haram area that could erase any sign of a historical Jewish presence in the area. Muslims deny these charges and insist that even Israeli excavations under the Haram over the past 33 years have not come up with any evidence to prove the existence of the Temple at the site.>>
In the sidereal zodiac, the position of the Moon at the time of the visit was:
Moon = 15,25 Virgo
The position of Venus at the time of the visit is also revealing:
Venus = 9,36 Libra
Pholus, apparently, is being very disruptive here, greatly intensifying the emotions, making Venus go astray. Neptune may be seen as the feeling of being dispossessed, "that which was mine (Venus) is not mine anymore (Neptune), it is being corrupted or invaded...
Now remember Bin Laden's Fatwa denouncing "the misery and humiliation" of Islam, the violation of its sacred places:
Fatwa's Pylenor = 9,33 Aries
This configuration is related directly to the chart of Israel:
Moon of Israel = 10,29 Cancer
In my first post presenting the horoscope of Islam, I wrote <<I believe this is related to "the marriage" between Arabs and Jews, to their sharing (???) the same territory.>>
A very sad marriage indeed, maker of many widows.
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:53:23 -0600
from A few days ago in a Spanish list, astrologer Boris Cristoff from Uruguay brought to the table one interesting fact about the chart of Israel. He quoted Israel's Declaration of Independence of May 14, 1948:
"WE DECLARE that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948), until the establishment of the elected, regular authorities of the State in accordance with the Constitution which shall be adopted by the Elected Constituent Assembly not later than the 1st October 1948, the People's Council shall act as a Provisional Council of State, and its executive organ, the People's Administration, shall be the Provisional Government of the Jewish State, to be called "Israel".Unfortunately, he didn't give the url, but I guess it would be easy to find. His point was that the end of the British mandate and the true beginning of the State of Israel was effective not that afternoon but at exact midnight hours later, according to the documents. He quotes the "chronology of the Harry Truman Library", which says:
"May 14, 1948: late morning eastern standard time (late afternoon in Palestine): David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, reads a "Declaration of Independence," which proclaims the existence of a Jewish state called Israel beginning on May 15, 1948, at 12:00 midnight Palestine time (6:00 p.m., May 14, 1948, eastern standard time). May 14, 1948, 6 p.m. eastern standard time (12:00 midnight in Palestine): The British mandate for Palestine expires, and the state of Israel comes into being."I don't know if this alternative time has been discussed before, but I thought it was interesting to look at the chart.
The main change apart from the houses is of course the Moon, which moves from 4,30 of Leo (14h15m GMT) to 9,41 Leo (23h GMT). This puts the Moon (6th house) in a strong conjunction with Pluto and Saturn:
Moon = 9,41 Leo
A configuration like this, I think, is very representative of the situation of Israel. It speaks of survival, of the danger of extinction, of the Holocaust, anti-semitism, Zionism, "right-wingism", the refusal to follow every United Nations resolution directed toward them, the totalitarianism shown in the militarily occupation and the colonization policy of Palestinian land, etc.
One also finds the following:
Nessus = 10,35 Taurus
Which puts the Moon in 9,41 Leo effectively applying to this at the focus of the T-cross. I feel that this more specifically speaks of the Palestinians, i.e., of having to live with a people that is foreign and hostile (TD10) and with which there is a strong mutual aversion, not to mention the mutual abuse by way of terrorism on both sides.
Considering the key role that the U.S. has always had in the Israeli defiance of the U.N. resolutions, it is useful to note the role of George W. Bush in this. To make the comparison, I use the sidereal zodiac:
sidereal Moon of Israel (midnight) =
Seeing this, I think G.W. Bush is not going to bring any easing of the situation for the people of Israel, especially if we consider the present transit of Neptune:
sidereal transiting Neptune today: 15,42 Capricorn
Another point worth mentioning is that "midnight" is a very exact time. If the quote from the Harry Truman Library is correct, and the time is 23h GMT, then we can safely use the Ascendant of Israel: 3,11 Pisces. In the sidereal zodiac, this is:
sidereal Ascendant of Israel = 9,10 Aquarius